Work It Like A Mum
Work It Like A Mum
From Playdates to Part-Time: Navigating the Career Comeback with Sarah Owen
Ever wondered if you can truly juggle a high-flying career whilst also managing school drop-offs, playdates, and, dare we say, a bit of self-care? Sarah Owen has been there, wrestled with those exact questions, and emerged with some truly golden insights. Sarah, the brilliant Talent Acquisition Partner at Finova, takes us on her personal voyage through the tricky waters of part-time job hunting.
In this chatty episode, Sarah spills the beans on why she's a staunch advocate for flexible working, her own hurdles and triumphs in finding that elusive perfect role, and the unsung heroes of her journey – agency recruiters. Keen to make your LinkedIn profile truly pop? Sarah’s got you covered with her tips straight from the recruiter's desk. And for those considering dipping their toes back into the full-time pool, but secretly pining for part-time, hear how Sarah cracked that very nut at Finova.
We then get down to the nitty-gritty – how to personalise your job application to truly shine, the gentle art of persuading potential employers that you're the real deal, and the critical bit about setting the rules of the game right from the get-go. And just before we wrap, Sarah lets us in on her thoughts about gender equality in the workplace, the responsibility of companies to champion diversity, and a wee bit of advice for all the HR professionals listening on shaping robust DNI policies.
So, whether you're contemplating a return to work post-baby, considering setting up your own gig, or you're an HR pro, this chat with Sarah is like a sit-down with an old mate, sharing those precious pearls of wisdom. Pop in your earphones, and let's navigate this together, because if Sarah can, so can you. Ready to Work It Like A Mum? Dive right in!
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Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life. I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women Job Board and Community. In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business. They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, their boundaries and balance, the challenges they've faced and how they've overcome them to define their own versions of success. Shy away from the real talk? No way. Money struggles, growth loss, boundaries and balance we cover it all. Think of this as coffee with your mates the mixed with an inspiring TED talk sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school. So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine and make sure you cozy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams, or just survive Mondays. This is the Work it Like A Mum podcast. This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women. Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers. Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you. They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries, ready to find your perfect job. Search their website at investinginwomencouk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity. Now back to the show.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome to this week's Work it Like A Mum podcast episode. Today I'm delighted to be chatting with Sarah Owen. Sarah is an experienced recruiter and works as the talent acquisition partner at the FinTech company Finova. We'll be chatting about Sarah's experience looking for part-time work when she found herself job searching at the end of 2022. Her passion for flexible working and DNI. And now that Sarah successfully works part-time, she'll be sharing her tips on how to make flexible working work for you and then show you do a great job at home and at work with more limited time. Thank you so much, sarah, for joining us today. It's an absolute pleasure to chat with you and find out a little bit more about your experiences, particularly job searching when looking for a part-time job.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I thought it'd be brilliant to start really talking about that experience and how, why you found yourself job searching and what that was like for you.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah. So at the end of 2022, I was on a fixed-term contract and I found it was coming to an end, and I knew it was coming to an end, so I started to look for work, and it was a time. It wasn't the best time of year it was kind of the lead up to Christmas, which is never an ideal time to be looking for a new role but it was also a time where there were lots of redundancies happening, especially in talent acquisition. People were making lots of cutbacks, so it was a really tough market and so that was quite a stressful time. But on top of that, I was also looking for something that was part-time. So I have two daughters two and five and that's my main reason for looking for part-time work so I can spend time with them on my days off and I just found that 98% of the roles were advertised as full-time and the very few that were advertised as part-time, I found that it was either a huge salary decrease or it would have been a huge step down for me. So I found myself applying to full-time roles in the hope I'd get an interview and then I would do the interview and then I would sort of anxiously ask the question at the end if they would consider it on a part-time basis. So yeah, that was very stressful.
Speaker 2:Obviously, I made lots of connections with Rectorex as well and my experience I can't say it was all bad. There were some fantastic people that I spoke to in the journey, fantastic recruiters, but equally there were some that didn't give me the time of day. I would have a message and then I would say, look, I need to. If I need to apply for a role, it has to be on a part-time basis. Some wouldn't even come back to me or some would just shut me down instantly and say, absolutely not. My client wouldn't even consider that and I'd sort of push back and say, well, can you ask the question, can you at least try? So yeah, it was just a really tricky place to be in emotionally.
Speaker 1:You've been an agency recruiter as I have, and I never ever, I mean I was an agency recruiter I sort of moved out of agency 2015. So it might have changed a bit. You know, listening to you and also my experiences, I don't think it's changed that much. I never recruited anybody part-time in all those years and if we had somebody getting touched saying they wanted part-time, we were told that, you know, we couldn't really help part-time workers. So I'm wondering what your thoughts are and why what part agency recruiters play in this?
Speaker 2:That's a really good question and I think looking back to my time in agency recruitment was I can't actually remember anyone asking so any candidates openly asking me would this be considered on a part-time basis, which kind of speaks volumes in itself. I think the agency they can play a really key role in. They do the kickoff meetings with the client. I think people are afraid to ask the question.
Speaker 2:I don't know why we have such a standard nine to five full-time working mindset. And just to say that, if you want to increase gender diversity within your workforce or hit talent pools of working parents or working mums that want part-time working, then can we consider this on a part-time or flexible working basis. And they can only turn around and say no. But I think we're all just very much in that kind of full-time mindset. But it needs to start somewhere and I think it's at those very early stages when the roles are just being released or they're in early conversations about they will be released. Can we make this part-time, can we make this flexible? And if the answers no, well, how come?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, those questions, I think you're right. I wonder sometimes if it's the commercials, because you get less, you know, as we know, commission is based on that starting salary and if someone's part-time, you would, you know, as an agency recruit, to charge less. And I do sometimes wonder if that is. Maybe they're not openly thinking that, but that may be something in the back of somebody's mind.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, that's a huge point and that's very valid. And you know, and I understand that as well you know we all have to keep our clients happy and meet business needs and business requirements and, yeah, billing is a huge part of agency recruitment. So, yeah, that definitely makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you were part-time, weren't you, as an agency recruiter?
Speaker 2:I was yes yeah.
Speaker 1:And how was? Because I remember when I was in agency, the lady that was part-time and I worked with she was fantastic and she actually billed more than any of us working four days a week. She was so focused on those four days she didn't you know, she didn't gossip or spend ages making tea like we used to do. So how did you find it in such a target-driven busy environment, working part-time at that point?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I started off in recruitment on a full-time basis at the People Foundry and I've been very fortunate with all of the companies that I've worked for and they've all been really flexible with the kids and things. But yeah, so I did convert from full-time to part-time when I had my first daughter and I think it's a mindset. You know, I'm sure you're aware of the Parkinson's Law kind of concept. The work expands to fill the time available and its completion. And I think you're right, you know you're very focused in that time.
Speaker 2:I think you know as well, I know, that I have to be out the door at a certain time because I've got to do school pickups, drop-offs, nursery pickups, drop-offs, and now times two because I've got two kids. I don't have the capacity to work late. So you know I try to very much prioritize things. You know, reading emails on a Monday morning when I've been off, it's like, right, I'll give myself 20 minutes to do this rather than an hour, you know. So it's. I think it's just about setting yourself sort of these targets and being realistic as well about what you can do in your three days a week.
Speaker 1:And were your employers, because you know I've spoken to people that have had. Their workload hasn't been reduced, their targets haven't taken into consideration that they are now working part-time.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely. So. I think that's another one of my kind of key principles that I do follow is that, you know, I have to set expectations. So I've always been three days a week working part-time. So I make sure that my targets reflect that and they're kind of prerotted down. But you know, even though I know that my targets are kind of less than everyone else's in the respect of being part-time, you know I've still Exceeded full-time targets. It's a kind of mindset really. That's just kind of the view that I have is very much, as I said, that kind of Parkinson's law kind of mindset when I'm working.
Speaker 1:That's really good advice. So before we jumped on the call, you sort of said this was your first experience job searching for a part-time role, because prior to that you'd been headhunted, I guess, and you'd worked part-time for quite a long time. You've had a few part-time jobs. You'd been approached for the other roles through LinkedIn and obviously that is such a cool way to find a job. You've got a lot more leverage if you potentially need some flexibility or something else in the role. So and I think a lot of candidates perhaps overlook the importance of a good LinkedIn profile and now you're a recruiter, you see, look at LinkedIn a lot. So what would be your advice to a job searcher or somebody you know looking for work regarding LinkedIn that maybe doesn't go on? Linkedin feels quite dodged about LinkedIn and is thinking about their profile.
Speaker 2:Sure, I think it's very similar to a CV really. Just, you know, make sure everything's up to date, make sure there aren't any gaps in your employment history or, if there are, just you know it's always helpful to explain. You know why, you know it could be sabbatical or you know maternity, because that's always helpful and, I think, just as detailed as possible. You know, a lot of the time when recruiters are searching for candidates on LinkedIn, we do a lot of kind of key skills, key words that we search for. So there is a skills section on LinkedIn that's really important to populate.
Speaker 2:I think it's always helpful to have a headshot as well. I think it just kind of adds that more kind of personalized profile. You can always kind of get to know somebody, just so I think that definitely helps. If you're open to work, you can amend your profile as open to work on LinkedIn. Again, that's something that recruiters can search for. But yeah, just detail is key really around your role, not too much, you know not. You know seven paragraphs, I'd say maybe two paragraphs, just kind of outlining what you're doing in your current role. But yeah, I think those are the kind of key points really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you were applying for full time roles and do you think that, yeah, good advice to somebody that does want part time?
Speaker 2:Well, I think that there's not much of a choice really, because, from my experience, if you are just going to apply for part time roles, then you, as I said, have to either take a huge pay cut or a big step down. That was the situation I found myself in. So, yeah, I found myself applying to full time roles and I had various interviews and you know, for some it went well and for others it didn't go down so well. At the end, when I said yeah, so a lot of questions.
Speaker 1:I get a lot of questions actually about this in our Facebook group. I'm applying. I've seen my dream job. It's full time. I want part time. When should I mention that I want part time? So when did you mention it?
Speaker 2:So I think my own kind of, again personal experience is I think if you feel that you are a great fit for a role and it's your dream job, then go for it and, I think, impress them in the interview, show them what you can do and then you know, leave it to the end To mention the part time piece, because I think it's a lot easier to be shut down in the beginning than it is when you've given them lots of reasons why they should hire you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and did you ever feel you had to justify why you wanted part time or how you would make part time work for that role?
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah. So, you know, I would sort of, when I introduced myself, I would say my name's Sarah, you know, and I'm a mum of two. So I'd give a very small introduction about my personal life and followed shortly by my professional experience. And, yeah, you know, I do feel I have to justify and I think it is important to an extent because if you are looking to request something that's not in the job description, such as you know, can you consider this on a part time basis? I think it always again, adding that kind of personal touch to you know why you need that. It resonates with people.
Speaker 2:And actually that's kind of what happened in my interview with Fanova. You know that was advertised as a full time position and you know, at the end I said would you consider this on a part time basis? I've got two lovely girls that you know at some point they'll both be at school and they'll be full time and you know I want to spend this time with them as much as I can and that's really important to me and I think, you know, just kind of sharing a bit of your own personal experience, as I said, resonates with people.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. So you managed to see. Then you were offered the role part time and you've started. So how did you sort of embed yourself then in the new role, you know, on a part time basis, and what advice would you give to somebody starting a new role part time?
Speaker 2:Of course. So firstly, I have to say Fanova is a fantastic company to work for. It very family friendly. We have an excellent family friendly policy.
Speaker 2:Again, you know, one of the things that I think is so attractive, and I think you know, obviously, being in talent acquisition, it's very easy to embed quickly because you get to know all the hiring managers, the key stakeholders, and you know, I think it's just drip feeding these kinds of conversations into the sort of early meetings that you have. And you know, a lot of the meetings that we have are around new roles and I kind of say, oh, you know, is this something we can consider on a part time basis? And a lot of them are very receptive to that. But I think you know, ultimately, in terms of making it work on a part time basis, I think it's Important to set expectations. You know, these are my working days, these are my days off.
Speaker 2:My days off I put my out of office on. You know, I give a proper handover to my colleagues that are aware of any kind of urgent things happening. I tend not to check emails and reply to messages on my days off. I'm not going to lie. I do do that sometimes. I think we all do, because it's hard to properly switch off. But I'm also mindful that I'm part time for a reason and it defeats the purpose if I'm just on my phone the whole time on my days off. So, yeah, I think it's just about being realistic, managing people's expectations of when you are an aunt in the office and don't set a precedent, because I think If you start to reply to emails and messages things, they'll expect it. So I think those are the key things really.
Speaker 1:I'm going to quit with your stakeholders. You know the beginning saying these my working days news.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely so. On my last day of the week, which is Wednesday for me, I usually send a handover email. You know these are the things that happening in my absence. Please contact, you know, my colleague and he can help you if anything urgent that comes up. So you know, they're aware of it, my colleagues aware of it, and yeah, I mean, and that's how I've always worked and it seems to work pretty well on the whole.
Speaker 1:See, you're now obviously really passionate about flexible working in d and I. Is that something that you always been quite passionate about?
Speaker 2:orders that something that's happened, following your experiences I think it's definitely something that has happened, more because of my own personal experience. I mean, obviously D and I is always something in the back of all recruiters minds. You know it's something we should all be mindful of and obviously it's not just gender diversity, there's All sorts of other diversities to consider. But I think it really home for me last year when I was looking about how unfair the cut the market places and how discriminated women still are. You know, against in the workplace and you know the kind of. The fact is that most people look and I don't want to obviously Say everyone that needs part time workers, a woman of course that's not the case. You know working parents, but most people that look for part time or flexible working our women because they're the main caregivers.
Speaker 2:Yeah because men are the ones who work full time, because they're the main earners, and that is obviously a whole other level of yeah, why am I the main thing?
Speaker 2:You know, it's something I felt really passionate about last year and, yeah, just to be in a position of what if I don't get a job, what if I have to go full time, what if I have to take a pay cut, you know, all of these things were really sort of playing in my mind.
Speaker 2:It was a really stressful place to be in and I really, you know, it's a really anxious time, probably one of the most anxious times of my life, you know, especially with the cost of living crisis and all of those things. You know, I was sort of in tears, you know, every other day when I was rejected for things and People just not coming back to me or people just being really rude and dismissive. It just yeah, it really hit hard. So I just feel really passionate. I don't want anyone else to be in that position, and that's where I feel so happy to be in a company like for naver, where it's been so well received To try and have more flexibility and to really focus on d and I and gender diversity and how we can attract, you know, more working parents really.
Speaker 1:So what policies do you think are key to ensuring more gender equality at work?
Speaker 2:I think definitely and I can't say for all roles, because I know it's not possible and I know that it has to work for a business too but I definitely think that we need to be more considerate of how we advertise our roles. So, even if it can't be part time, but it can be flexible around school runs, I think just putting flexibility in a title could attract so many more people. I think there are obviously lots of different things that we can do. You know, flexible part time working is just a starting point. I think we've already, you know we've got, as I mentioned, this fantastic family friendly policy with enhanced maternity and paternity pay. We also have paid leave for fertility and pregnancy loss as well, which I think is again something not really spoken about, but things that are really important. But yeah, as I said, these are just kind of starting point conversations, but I think there's so many more things that can be done.
Speaker 1:So obviously internal recruitment teams, dni, hr have a huge responsibility actually for changing the game, particularly for women and gender equality in the work and trying to get that buy-in from their senior leaders in their organisation. What advice would you have to maybe another recruiter or HR person listening to this that is struggling to get that buy-in for DNI policies from their senior managers?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a very good question. I think it's just about looking at the statistics around the kind of benefits of flexible part time working. I know, liz, you released a fantastic article recently about the benefits and I think one of them was the productivity kind of peaks, that they're 30 hours a week, which is really interesting. And you know, obviously I'm just one person but I know that I've exceeded full-time targets and I get the job done. You know I've been with FNAVA for three months now and you know, so far filled every role that's been given to me and I've filled it very quickly. So you know it is achievable and I do think people are just a lot more focused when they have. I think it's almost like that mindset of the more freedom and flexibility you give people, the harder they work.
Speaker 2:No, that's not a specialist quote or based on statistics. I'm sure there is a study out there somewhere on it. But I think you do. I think you would need to go to the exec team with some proper statistics around how it can benefit the business, because you know, ultimately it has to benefit the business. That's why there's a business. So I think, yeah, that would be the sort of area I would sort of come at.
Speaker 1:So you've obviously got, is it? Two daughters. Two daughters, yes. So what would you like the workplace to look like for them, you know, in 20 years time when they're entering the workplace.
Speaker 2:You know my kind of dream or what I would love to see, and I think you know we're already seeing some small changes with the. You know the right to flex from day one. That will be coming in at some point. I'm not sure when that's due to come in, but I think ultimately at some point it should be mandatory for all roles to be advertised as full or part time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know it does make, you know, the recruiters role more difficult, because if you did find someone who is really good part time, perhaps you could look for a job share. You know there are, and obviously that is more. That is tricky to do that and I understand that, and but equally this is, you know, women and inequality is never going to change unless we make these changes around the kind of nine to five full time working mindset, and I think COVID has done a lot in our favor. You know we can work from home, a lot more hybrid working, but I think, yeah, I ultimately I'd love to see that when my daughters are older, that they don't have to make that choice between do I work part time or do I work full time. I can have both. You know I can spend time with my children and I can have my career and I shouldn't be discriminated, you know.
Speaker 2:Again, for making that choice. As I said, I do appreciate it. It's not an easy thing, especially for recruiters. You know, if you did find someone excellent who needs part time, but it was a full time role, you're going to have to go out and find someone who can do a job share. But it is what it is. Times are changing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so much bigger, isn't it, I suppose, than one individual, one individual's pay packet, and it's something collectively. Is that something you think that obviously the agencies are incentivised to find those people and they want to find somebody quickly, they want to find somebody that's for maximum profit. How much of a responsibility do you think the organisations have, how they incentivise those agencies? Because they could incentivise them differently. They could say will give you a bonus if you find somebody that helps us meet our D&I targets in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's probably a perfect answer actually that you've just said so. I feel like I can steal that. I think a lot of companies are very kind of they talk about gender diversity in women in tech, and we're a great family-friendly company and we want to have as much gender diversity as possible. But I think actions speak louder than words. A lot of people say that they're doing it, but actually are they doing it and you're right. Like, if you're working with agencies, how can you incentivise them if a lot of what they're doing is based on billing the salaries? So, absolutely, I think, if you are really that hot on D&I and gender diversity, then say that to the recruiters go and find me some fantastic working parents, and if that means finding two because a lot of my friends who are working mums, they do job shares. I'm not sure how that came about. It was probably more of an organic thing, but I think, yeah, absolutely a bonus scheme around targets of. I think that that would be an excellent incentive for recruiters.
Speaker 1:Something to think about. So how can people find you, connect with you and learn more about Penova and perhaps apply for some roles with you?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, so. You can go to our careers website at finovatech, and I'm on LinkedIn as well, sarah Owen. So if anyone wants to reach out, they can feel free to pop me a message or send me a connection on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. Well, we put all the links in the show notes. Thank you so much, Sarah, for your time today. Thank you, Liz. Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work it Like A Mon podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe, and don't forget to share the link with a friend. If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode. You can also follow my recruitment site Investing in Women on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. Until next time, keep on chasing your big dreams.