Work It Like A Mum
Work It Like A Mum
Regaining Confidence: Getting Your Pink Back After Motherhood
Have you ever felt lost or unsure about how to regain your confidence after a significant life change, like maternity leave or a health challenge?
If you're an HR professional or leader, how are you currently supporting the well-being of your employees beyond just enforcing policies?
Meet Kali Crow, an HR Business Partner at Bates Wells. She shares her multifaceted journey through motherhood, career transitions, and personal health challenges.
What We Explore:
- Transitioning Back to Work Post-Maternity: Kali shares the emotional and professional challenges of returning to work and rebuilding her confidence after maternity leave.
- Kali's Journey Navigating Health and Motherhood: Hear Kali's journey through Multiple Sclerosis (MS), IVF treatments, and the unexpected paths to motherhood.
- The Role of HR in Supporting Employee Well-being: Kali discusses HR's shift from policy enforcement to a compassionate, employee-focused function.
- Advocacy and Personal Growth: Learn how Kali champions better support systems in the workplace and helps others navigate their challenges.
- Regaining confidence - "Getting Your Pink Back": A metaphor for renewal and recovery post-maternity, inspired by how flamingos regain their colour after parenthood.
Why You Should Listen:
Whether you're managing the balance between your career and personal life or work in HR and are looking for ways to foster a more supportive workplace, this episode provides valuable insights. Kali's story is one of resilience, growth, and empowerment, offering personal inspiration and professional advice.
Show Links:
Connect with your host, Elizabeth Willetts on LinkedIn
Connect with Kali Crow on Linkedin
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Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life. I'm a working mom with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women job board and community. In this show, I'm honored to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business. They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, set boundaries and balance, the challenges they faced and how they've overcome them to define their own versions of success. Shy away from the real talk? No way. Money struggles, growth, loss, boundaries and balance. We cover it all. Think of this as coffee with your mates, mixed with an inspiring TED Talk sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school. So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, make sure you're cosy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams, or just survive Mondays. This is the Work it Like A Mum podcast. This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women. Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers. Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you. They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries, ready to find your perfect job. Search their website at investinginwomencouk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity. Now back to the show.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Work it Like A Mum podcast. Today I'm delighted because I'm going to be chatting with Hallie Crowe. I'm going to be talking all about getting your pink back after maternity leave. We'll also be discussing Callie's career history. She works in HR, so we'll be talking a little bit about wellbeing at work and what firms can be doing to support employees, and also what you can be doing to support your own wellbeing, also talking a little bit about Callie's journey and how she juggles her role as a senior HR VP with two small children. So thank you so much, callie, for joining me today. It's surreal. I'm so excited to chat with you. So talk me through your role at the moment, what you currently do within HR.
Speaker 2:Sure, so I am senior HR business partner at Bateswells, which is a B Corp law firm. I joined there just over a year ago off the back of my second maternity leave, so I essentially head up the advisory side of the HR team. So that looks at the employee relations side, talent management, learning and development, lateral recruitment, emerging talent recruitment as well. So we do quite a lot in that space. So we cover everything and my background has given me the skills to do some of that. Um. I've covered all of it, some of it more so than others. Um, but it's really great working with a team where they've got deep specialisms in areas but also generalist experience, so we can all cover each other.
Speaker 2:Um, so yeah, so I mean I don't know what more you want to know data. I mean you always wanted to be in HR. So, interestingly, no, but I'm not surprised I ended up in HR. I did one of those things at school whether you work out what vocation you wanted and I remember being in school and other people were getting you know doctors and solicitors and mine came up in this really weird um, you'll end up doing a role which helps other people in their roles and I was like well, what is that? I didn't even know what that meant and I went off and did a theatre studies degree and but even in that I was drawn towards the people side. So I ended up tailoring my degree to go and work in prisons and using theatre as a therapy for prisoners, and theatre as a therapy yeah, yeah, I love drama.
Speaker 1:I did. I didn't go all the way to university, but I did a BTEC in performing. Okay, yeah. So where did you study your theatre studies? I?
Speaker 2:went to Warwick so it was a kind of mixed course of theatre studies. So you did the literature side but you also did the practical side. And then for my dissertation well, the practical part of my dissertation I went into a primary school and worked with shy children, using theatre, therapy and drama as a way to help support them and grow their confidence and, I guess, get away from that label of being shy. And we all know now. You know, the more you label someone, the more they act in that way, and so, yeah, and so it kind of naturally followed through that. Then I moved to London. I ended up in recruitment IT recruitment but very quickly realized that, although I like the people side, that was not what I wanted to do. So I moved in-house, um and, yeah, work my way through from trainee recruitment and graduate recruitment, um at a law firm through to becoming an HR business partner and then, yeah, and then moved into a head of HR role and I think I've just grown through that.
Speaker 2:I like the people bit, I like supporting people, I like knowing that. I've just grown through that. I like the people bit, I like supporting people, I like knowing that I've actually it sounds corny, but helped an individual on an individual level. But also I like understanding the strategy of the business and you know, in the last 10 years we've really seen HR change in kind of the importance that businesses place on it and really recognizing that people are their biggest asset, which again sounds really cheesy, but and you can really play a role in, in helping organizations to understand and work on their strategy so that it includes the elements that are really going to make sure that the working environment is right for the people that you've got and you're going to get the right people in, you're going to retain the right people. You're going to, um, help to promote and develop the right people in the right way.
Speaker 2:Um, but I am also really passionate because I'm sure we get onto it, my personal background about the kind of the well-being, mental health side of that and understanding that no one's journey is linear and no one's performance is always going to be on an upward trajectory and what good firms should do is support people through the tough times because it makes it makes for a happier and healthier employee in the long run and they're likely to stick with you. And if they're good, well, why wouldn't you support your talent? And I think you know we were chatting offline before there's so many myths aren't there about HR and we get this bad rep of like, oh you're the police, go and speak to HR about that or check the policy. And you know, yeah, and if you're an organization that's bigger and you do have to have policies and I strongly believe that some policies actually help individuals.
Speaker 2:Again, through my own experiences where I've worked and it's been very policy light in certain situations that has been really challenging for myself and for others myself personally, not as an HR person, but for others and others to know where the boundaries are and what we should or shouldn't be doing. But I think you know I come at HR with a really compassionate, caring point of view where this is about what is best for the individual and, obviously, what is right for the business and how do we get to the right outcome for both people in a in a kind way. Um, and kindness doesn't mean to be all fluffy and doesn't mean that you know I shy away from difficult conversations. It means that you're just doing it in a way that's open and transparent and and honest.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I love that because there is obviously remember when HR used to be like personnel and it was a bit like yeah, and everyone looked down their nose at it and it's like you know the careers were in.
Speaker 2:If you're in business teams or business services, you're in finance or you're in you know it, but you know just some women wearing lots of beads in personnel basically, and things have really progressed from that now, um, and a lot of the initiatives that we're doing, it is collab, you know there's a lot of collaboration with across the business team. But the big things that people are concerned about now, like AD&I, like wellbeing, like mental health, they all are really founded in the HR space or the people space, which you know it's quite often referred to now because we're moving away from that human resources. In fact, I used to work when I first joined the first law firm that I worked at, there was a guy in the post room. He always used to come up and drop off the mail when HR used to sit in one corner, one area, behind a door, and he used to come and say, oh hello, human remains, and it really did used to feel like that, but it's changed so much.
Speaker 2:Now I feel like there's real energy in the HR space.
Speaker 1:Um yeah, and it's good that they're so recognized it because, like I, the biggest asset for any organisation is its people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because most of the work that we do is in that space. You know, it is our people selling their skills to help others, be that consulting or legal. I mean, obviously I've always worked in professional services, but it goes right through to sales and, yeah, all kind of sorts of professions, doesn't it?
Speaker 1:Absolutely sales and um, yeah, all all kind of sorts of professions, doesn't it? Absolutely so I know that before you had children, you obviously had um, that we're going to come on to some health struggles, talk us through that and then you know how you supported at work, maybe how you supported yourself, what potentially your employer at the time could have done yeah.
Speaker 2:So I was, I thought, super healthy and fit and eating all the right things, and I was actually training for the London Marathon. And then my leg gave way and then I got double vision the next day and then the day after I was trying to put my makeup on and I kept poking myself in the eye and this complete fatigue, which I now know was brain fog, came over me and I luckily had private medical and managed to get into the neurologist very quickly who got me in for a scan in Blackheath the next day. They suspected it was a mini stroke, although did some kind of physical assessments and worked out quite quickly that that wasn't the case. And then the scan results came back and it turned out that I had MS, multiple sclerosis. So I was just 30. I'd been married nine months.
Speaker 2:It was complete shock. I mean, at the time I was like it could be a lot worse, it could be a brain tumor. Obviously it could have been a lot worse and now I know I mean there's way worse things that happen to people. But it was hugely traumatic and shocking and out of the blue and happened overnight, it seemed. But it turned out that I'd had ms for a while, I'd obviously had multiple mini attacks. What ms is?
Speaker 2:it's a neurological disease I was gonna say yeah, I mean, you hear about it, but what you know, actually it's a neurological disease where your your brain, you basically have something I won't go too technical on it but you have t-cells and they help to repair they're're called myelin sheets and the myelin protects your nerve. Think of it like insulation on a drain pipe, basically. So the myelin protects it and also it repairs itself to keep the nerve protected, so that nerve receptors and the transmission of signal can bounce down the nerve. Basically, and instead of protecting it, your immune system goes a little bit AWOL and the T cells start to attack the myelin, causing gaps in the myelin or bigger gaps in the myelin, and that means that the nerves get disrupted and so you can't, you know, do the things that you were able to do, and the buildup of that over time causes disability in some people. So you have relapsing I have relapsing, remitting MS, which means that there might be times of attack. So it goes AWOL, as I said, and your T cells attack the myelin and that means that the nerves, the messages, can't get down the nerves.
Speaker 2:So for me, that's why I got the double vision, because there was a lesion on the back of my optic nerve where there was an attack. That's why I got the double vision, because there was a lesion on the back of my optic nerve where there was an attack. So my vision went yeah, really quite scary when you wake up and you open your eyes and everything is double and you can't shake it off and you blink your eyes. Yeah, and my hand, my left hand, I just couldn't coordinate it or move it as quickly and obviously my leg gave way and it can hit anywhere in your brain, nerve in the brain, so it can hit any part of your body and then the attack passes, but you're left with a scarring around that area, which is where we got the name multiple sclerosis, which means multiple scars.
Speaker 2:So over time you get multiple scars in your brain of areas which are going to, I guess. Well, they're like a scar tissue, so the nerve can't then get through. Nerves are really clever. They find a new way around, but that takes longer because they try to use the path of least resistance. So that's why you get buildup of the lesions. You get slower at doing certain things you might get more. Disability affects different people in different ways. Or you get more tiredness because your brain is taking more energy to do the things that you can, that you do, the movements or whatever, because it's finding another way around that's what it makes sense.
Speaker 1:It does make sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they do, they repair themselves, but it doesn't yeah, so, but if the nerve itself gets damaged there's, it absolutely can't repair itself. And that's where you know you might see people that they have lost the ability to to walk, or you know, physically or cognitively, because, like I said, it can affect any area of your brain and once the nerve is actually damaged, um then unfortunately that's, they can't do anything about that. But I was really lucky I I got diagnosed very quickly. It can take years and years for people to get diagnosed with MS, because there's no one test that proves you've got MS. It's about ruling out multiple other problems. You know, is it stroke? No, is it another neurological disease? No, what is it? Et cetera. And they have all sorts of hideous ways of doing that, like lumbar punches and various things on your spinal cord, because it doesn't just affect your brain, it affects your spinal cord as well.
Speaker 2:But again, I was lucky in some ways that I was in the middle of an active attack, so they were able to do dicontrast gel, inject it into me. It showed an area of my brain where there was activity, the wrong type of activity, and, yeah, they diagnosed it fairly quickly and then I was able to get onto a trial treatment down at King's through an amazing consultant, now professor there. So I was the 29th person in Europe to have this trial treatment. I had to go in for five days and basically they killed my immune system, rebooted it and then I went back a year later, had the same drug which again killed off all of my white cells, blood cells. So I had to shield before. Shielding was a thing for six to eight weeks after that because obviously I had no immunity. But luckily touch wood been coming up nine, well, nine years, nine and a half years since my diagnosis I haven't had another attack, which is amazing Touch wood. So obviously I've had to make loads of lifestyle changes.
Speaker 1:I was gonna say I mean, how so do you? So you've had treatment yeah do you have to take?
Speaker 2:regular medicine. No, I'm lucky. I mean, some people do, I don't. Again, there's loads of different drugs and different forms of treatment for different stages of different types of MS, because of different types of MS as well. But I don't, I just have to manage myself. Just try not to get you know, I will get a little flare up because there is some damage. So if I'm really stressed I get certain tells. So I get an ache, a specific ache under my eye. Really strange, I find that my left hand occasionally slows down and I'll be typing and I'll be like oh, it feels like cramp, but it's not quite. Oh, I know what that is, it's just is that your body?
Speaker 1:they're telling you you need to just slow down.
Speaker 2:You need to be less stressed, you need to be more careful, you need to just have some sleep or maybe your diet hasn't been quite so healthy or you know, etc. So I really have kind of taken steps to improve my overall health. I think there were things I was doing in my 20s like a lot us where I was quite keen on lots of heavy exercise but late nights out and also for me eating really healthily was just eating lettuce and I would do that during the week and that's actually not good for your body obviously. Whereas now it's like okay, rounded diet, not obsessed with, you know, hitting the gym hard, but doing regular strengthening exercises which obviously put us in a good place as we get later on in our life and especially as women hit perimenopause etc. So I've kind of gone on that journey of really kind of understanding more about myself and my body and how it works. But that actually but having the treatment then led me into having IVF because I was going to say did that affect your fertility?
Speaker 2:then it didn't. But the treatment they said they couldn't categorically promise that it wouldn't affect my eggs and my egg reserves. So they said they suggested that I had eggs and embryos frozen before I started treatment. So I was like, well, I definitely want children, so let's do that. Luckily it didn't affect my eggs and my egg reserve at all.
Speaker 2:Um, but in doing that we found out that I had polycystic ovaries and through a number of years then of trying and having different rounds of IVF which if anyone has gone through that it's hard, as you know, it's really tough and draining. So yeah, that was the kind of five years. So late late 20s, early 30s I was diagnosed and then suddenly we went into okay treatments for MS rounds of IVF, rounds of IUI before that which had no effect because of the fact we had other issues going on on both sides, both my husband and I. So my husband had DNA fragmentation, I had polycystic ovaries, high egg reserve but poor quality eggs at times. I had a lining issue as well, which we then discovered later on with a test which showed that my lining was becoming most receptive earlier on in my cycle.
Speaker 2:Like loads of things I mean, the science is amazing, but it's not amazing when you're in it and you're dealing with that and you're also trying to hold down a job and trying to live a life, and you're aware that, oh, this is my 30s, slipping away and like, oh, now I'm 34, 35 and it's not old at all, but you're like I still don't have kids.
Speaker 2:I said I'm not where I wanted to be or not where I thought I didn't think I had a plan, but turns out I did have a plan in my head, sort of, and this is not what the plan looked like, but on the flip side, constantly thinking, but I am also really lucky because I'm able to try. There's no nothing saying that I won't get pregnant. Um, my MS is under control, so, anyway, so it's a yeah, it's. And I met through loads of people through that and now, obviously, having come through that, I'd not change any of that and I think it's really rounded me as an individual and as an HR professional to really understand, um, that you know you've got to stick with people when they're going through stuff because they will inevitably come out the other side most people and you know that that's different. It's just a phase in life and you know it happens and employers should be there and HR teams should be there to support people.
Speaker 1:I do know. I don't know if you found this as well. Obviously I went through IVF like you and there was a lot going on and outside work.
Speaker 2:I became consumed by it and I'm googling it and and the diets and the not doing this, and you're all on the drugs and the vitamins that you're having and you're planning constantly when's my next period. So I can't go on holiday then, because that might be then and that'll be the trigger. Yeah, get that.
Speaker 1:But then at work. I don't know if you found that it was sort of a bit of a salvation that you had something else to focus on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so definitely, and I think that's for me. Work was definitely something I could throw myself into. I could really push forward and I was working at an organization that and this is what I was saying about policies earlier that was super supportive in the fact that I was the sole person in HR really a fantastic recruiter but at that time had a recruiter in me. I was doing everything across the board for HR, heading up the HR function, so I was writing the policies. But when you're going through something like diagnosis and then fertility treatments and then miscarriage as well I had one along the way you can't write a policy on that. When you're going through it, you just can't because you can't see it clearly, you can't detach from it, and my work was fantastic at the time. They were basically like, well, fine, do what you need to do, you're in HR, you know what you need to do personally, so have the time, flex your hours, go to the appointments, et cetera, which was fantastic.
Speaker 2:However, on the flip side, I actually found at times I was like is this okay? I need the reassurance that I'm not completely. I know I'm not taking the mickey, but I don't want you to think I'm taking the mickey and I need a bit of structure and I need a bit of kind of this is what is allowed and this is what we would say, and that's where I think some of the policies can just help you, particularly when you're going through times of real turmoil and trauma and uncertainty. That's why I think people find solace in work, but also that's where I think you knowace in work, but also that's where I think you know HR professions can help with. Like this is what the support looks like.
Speaker 2:There's flexibility. Obviously, no policy should be absolutely rigid when it comes to this kind of stuff, but this is how we think it applies and let's talk through how that might apply to you, because the freedom to just go off and do what you need sometimes I felt like there was, there was no anchoring, and that's what I've kind of learned from that and I think that that can be really beneficial for some people, some people, not maybe they don't need it, but actually also for hiring managers as well, if you've got a hiring manager that doesn't get it yeah, exactly it might not be in fertility because it's something else and actually it's good for, yeah, for a manager as well yeah, exactly, and just having that kind of that opportunity for something, because that means you can kind of spark a conversation and that individual might not be ready to talk about it, but at least, when they feel that they are, there is something that they can go to and be like.
Speaker 2:Oh so I need to talk to you about this because I'm actually going through this and it actually makes it a little bit easier. There's an inroad, because just sitting in front of your manager and going so I'm about to start IVF and basically I don't really know what the outcome will be. I'm admitting to you that I want to get pregnant, so basically I'm admitting to you that, if it all goes well, I'm going to be taking you up on your you know maternity policy soon. It also means that I'm admitting to you that we've been trying, which, basically because we're British and a bit funny about this stuff, means that me and my partner have been having SEX. The whole thing is really quite like. There's so many layers to it that are really hard.
Speaker 2:I remember that, I remember that conversation you feel like you're exposing yourself, don't you? I might as well have just stood naked in the office. Yeah, it's, it's really hard, and so that's why I think, and that's why I really feel that I can bring that kind of understanding and passion, compassion to that. But that's where I think, you know, hr plays. Hr plays a role, various policies play the role. More openness and talking about it, which is why, kind of my personal mission is like and I suppose that's part of getting my pink back and like feeling more energized now is like do you know what? I shouldn't be ashamed of? Having a diagnosis, and I'm definitely not ashamed. I'm not ashamed of it.
Speaker 2:At the time, the time there was, you know, there was trauma around that and it was difficult to come to terms with. Does this mean I'm? Do I label myself as someone who has a disability? No, I don't feel I do. But how would others? It's hard and you're navigating that.
Speaker 2:Um, and then with IVF, first round and the second round, I didn't want to tell anyone. And then I actually started to tell people. And then you realize people can't start coming out the woodwork and saying, well, I had IVF or this is going on. And then, of course, I had a miscarriage and it was like, well, I can't keep hiding this and I can't keep trying to carry on at work as if nothing's happening. When it feels like my life is imploding outside of work, and when people say, where are you going on holiday, you're like, uh, nowhere, because, um, I'll be on day 14 of my cycle and that will be, you know, injection 52, and you just can't, and you can't, you have no money, no money, yeah. So, um, and your body's changing all the time because you're pumping yourself through hormones, so you're constantly, like you know, puffing out, and I was on steroids at one point, and then I was, I was on steroids they're awful oh they're awful.
Speaker 2:You've got roid rage and your hormones are all over the place. And you know, I remember a partner in a meeting said something I can't remember what they said and I was like crying out out, like I had to explain to him. I'm actually going through IVF, so I'm injecting myself three times a day and going to the toilet to take sniffs, and so that's why I'm crying. It's not because I've lost the plot or not because I'm not able to do this job. I'm still fully capable of doing this job and actually it's making me more capable because of what I was doing as a job for the future. But right now, you know there's a lot going on, um, so yeah, so what could be firm with Duke?
Speaker 1:still, you know, obviously a lot of the listeners here are women and a lot of them will have gone through IVF and baby loss or they know somebody that's going through it. What do you think firms do I mean? What does a good policy look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, good question. I think a good policy, any good policy is one that's really easy to digest and really easy to read and where it sets out really clearly what is on offer, what the support is, what the enhancements if there are any enhancement enhancements at Bateswells we offer five fertility days for in any year, but but and also that there is a person that can link to that. So it's not you're not just reading something, that there is someone that you can go to to bring it to life and to talk about how that might work for you as an individual. Yeah, I mean, every firm will have a different take on what they are able to offer and what commercially they're able to offer, and their size and shape etc. But it's definitely got to have, when we're talking about IVF specifically, I think, clear definition of what this means.
Speaker 2:And it also needs to understand that people are coming at this from different angles. So I was coming at IVF from a point of view of desperately wanting to have children, having fertility issues and challenges around that. But other people won't have fertility issues and challenges. They'll be using IVF because they're in a same-sex relationship and have to go through a route of IVF, and that's not to say that. That's not to say that that's not also challenging, because it is, and they might come across different barriers and yeah, stigmatism, et cetera, because of the route that they're going down and what they're having to deal with. So no one's route's the same. So no policy can be rigid, no policy can make any assumptions that they know what that individual's going through, and no policy can dictate what the trajectory and what the route should be. But it can offer some provisions, some support, what that means, flexibility in terms of holidays and timings, and just saying that you know, if you're not able to talk to your line manager about this, then please go to this person and it will be confidential, to the point that you want it to be confidential because it's got to be on the onus of the individual when they're ready to talk about it.
Speaker 2:Going a step further, and this is something that I'm now starting to do and embark on I'm about to start off on a we'll probably talk about it later on a coaching accreditation myself, but for me, what I've started to do internally is work with individuals in our business. So I've got that unique position of being in HR, having gone through it myself but also now going through a coaching course as well to actually support them a little bit, because advocating for yourself during the whole process is key. But it's really hard to do that when you've just been landed with oh, you're going to have to go through IVF. You've got these fertility challenges. Oh, you're going to have to manage it aroundF. You've got these fertility challenges, oh, you're going to have to manage it around your work. Yep, there's no, it's very hard to understand the medical side of that and you're all just put into a process. You know, when you go through your first round of IVF, they put you on the protocol, don't they?
Speaker 1:yeah, and you actually have no flexibility.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no flexibility in that whatsoever doesn't matter. It's a baseline and some people get pregnant off the back of that first time great. A lot of people don't, because the drugs need tweaking, they need changing everybody's different. They have to do it as a baseline to find out. But you are on this rigid protocol where you are like I don't understand what's going on. I've been given a sheet of paper with a little timeline on it and days on it and I've been told to turn up, you know, every three to five days for a scam and that's really hard. So where we can understand and support and include in the policy and understanding that we know that you're not going to know which day you're out, you're not going to know which day you're taking your trigger injection. You're not going to know when we're doing an egg collection, because nobody knows, because it depends on how your body reacts to these drugs.
Speaker 1:That's okay you know, we can take the burden off, we can flex your work and we can make it as easy as possible for you. Um, so yeah, does that answer that I'm, and that sounds really helpful and I know that a lot of people you know would be so thankful for a policy like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I do think there is something, when you're ready to, is telling people, I mean, I left it quite a long time and got to a point where I couldn't carry on. But actually, as soon as I told people, there was nervousness. I mean, I was working in a quite male-dominated environment, and they're all like, oh OK, well, take as much time as you need, which, like I said, was great. But also they weren't all like that. There was a lot of support. But yeah, it can be. It can just be challenging. It's challenging. It's a major life event you're going through, isn't it?
Speaker 1:so you've had two children now I have.
Speaker 2:So yes, first through ivf and then second, we had an egg collection and we're going to have a frozen embryo transfer and then found out we were pregnant. So crazy. I mean like you've got a similar story, haven't you similar?
Speaker 1:same thing. Yeah, first ivf and then second.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah so, yeah, surprise, and they call it spontaneous in the clinic, which I think is really nice. Because they don't call it natural, because there's no natural way people get pregnant. You know different times, different stages, different ways. So, um, yeah, so it's a spontaneous pregnancy, um. So, yeah, I've now got two um. My little boy has just started school literally two days ago. So I can't believe we're now five years on, um, and that time has just flown by. And my youngest is two and a half and she is um, enjoying life as a two and a half year old, with all that that brings.
Speaker 1:So it's full-on and loud and messy in our house oh nice, um, so tell me through what's your career look like since having children?
Speaker 2:yeah.
Speaker 2:So I made the decision to move when I came back from my second maternity leave. The timing felt absolutely right. I knew that I didn't want to have any more children. Well, actually, no, I have moments where I'm like, oh, I'd have another. But I was like, no, no, we're not having any more children.
Speaker 2:And it felt like I now needed to turn my attention to my career. I had been working working hard, developing skills, developing a network. I'm really enjoying my time, but it had always been working eight years as head of HR, whilst being diagnosed, whilst going through IVF, whilst having my first and then going through COVID and then getting pregnant with my second, and that was a hard pregnancy and it was like was like now, now is the time. And it felt like now or never. Um, and I came across this opportunity um, at Bates Wells, which is, um, yeah, it's for me, it's sort of the dream job in HR. Um and uh, it was it's an HR, senior HR, business partner heading up the advisory side of the business, as I said before. So lots going on um and back within a team, which for me, was really important. Doing a standalone role for years, was really great for my development from a kind of robustness, resilience perspective, from, in some ways, having to back yourself, to have confidence and just go with it, go with your gut. Also, like I said, network I really pulled upon a fantastic network of people, in fact, lots of women, women, but also men as well, for learning and development, for legal advice, for coaching, support, um, just like psychology assessments when we were revamping various elements of our recruitment program, etc. Um, but I really felt passionately that it was time for me to be back within a fold, within a team, learning from people, working with people from different ages as well. Because, because, obviously, all the things that teams bring and we've talked about it before, actually, you and I For me, it was a it could be seen asa sideways move, so kind of in terms of, you know, job title, salary yeah, I guess it was a sideways move, but it doesn't feel like that because it feels like it is absolutely the next step.
Speaker 2:But it doesn't feel like that because it feels like it is absolutely the next step. It's challenging me in a whole host of other ways because it's a bigger organization with a bigger team, with more people to manage, with more plates to spin, with more people to consult with. So yeah, and more opportunities as well. And also for me, there was something about moving to a B Corp. So Bates Wells was the first law firm to be given B Corp status accreditation. There are now a number more law firms.
Speaker 2:But when you're doing HR, I feel you can't do HR authentically if you don't align to the business. And increasingly, just because of my experiences, I wanted to work somewhere that really had people and sustainability at the heart of what they do and that that was as important as profit and driving things forward, and that's exactly what a B Corp is. So it was like perfect match. In fact, from first stage, interview to offer was less than two weeks. It was just like, yeah, now you know, and that's sometimes what happens.
Speaker 2:Oh, I don't know about that. Sometimes just the stars align, don't they? And it's like this is absolutely the right place for me. And also there's a bit about a confidence piece as well, like, oh, I know I can do it on my own, but I want to do it as part of a team, coming back off a second maternity leave that comes with all of those. I've done it before, but it's hard work coming back off maternity leave and you've been out for a year and can you pick it back up, and what's your cover been doing, and et cetera.
Speaker 1:How do you build that? Because that is something I think a lot of people will. That will resonate with a lot of people. They lose confidence. They lose confidence quite quickly. And actually when you're a lot further along, because I lost confidence, but within a couple of months you think why? Because?
Speaker 2:I think, gosh, that's a good question. So for me it's about I don't know. There's only one thing that just builds it back up. I think it's about being honest about where you are, and that's where I'd always go to like, and also there is an element of I have done this in the past. Of course, I know how to do it. I might not know exactly what's been going on in the business right now. I might not be the you know, whatever area you're in, I might not have done the biggest deal in the last few months, because I grew a human and I kept it alive, and then I, you know. So it is kind of I know I've got to where I am because I'm good at what I do, and it is telling yourself that. And then I think it's looking out for that support. We offer maternity coaching. I offered it at the last organization. I think that's really important. Yeah. Coaching I offered at the last organization. I think that's really important. Yeah, I do really think that that can be very positive for individuals. And I think the planning before you go off as well is really important Setting yourself up for success.
Speaker 2:What does the last eight weeks look like? What does the last six weeks look like? What does your handover look like? Have you closed off? Have you had that conversation about? And it might change. You're not setting it in stone, but that conversation about where you think your career might go afterwards and what it might look like when you get back, it might totally change, particularly if it's your first, or even if it's your second. But your first, like you might not want that anymore, but that's fine. It's setting yourself up before you go off so that when you come back you're like, okay, I pick some things up. I mean, I'm a, I'm really organized, so I guess I give myself the confidence because I'm such a plumber and that's. I know that about myself. So you know, when I finished for my first mat leave, I had a documented to-do list, a spreadsheet, et cetera, all saved down and notes to myself. So when I pick back up a year later or a year and 13 months later, it was like, oh, this is, it's all been progressed and things have changed. But this is what I noted these things down just to re-familiarize yourself with things.
Speaker 2:I think also there's an element of just going slow and just looking after yourself and recognizing that it takes a bit of time to phase back in. And what do you want to do? Don't do because you think the business wants you to do that. And I say this to people all the time. Don't come back because you think the business will be grateful that you came back from maternity, bam, straight into it and you started working. The days that you're going to work, they're going to forget about it in a couple of months. You do what you need to do. If that means you need to phase back and do two days a week or one day a week for a month, that's totally fine as well. And making use of your kit days, all those practical stuff, just so many little things that really help build your confidence or remind you that you are confident and capable.
Speaker 2:And the other thing I felt kind of really empowered by was maybe more so because of the drama that I'd gone through having children and how long it had taken was like I've had a child, like I've given birth. That's pretty amazing. That's quite hard to do. If I can do that, I'm really sure I can get my head back around this spreadsheet and, um, you know, remember what my job is. Um, so there isn't just one thing.
Speaker 2:Um, I also think and it does sound and some people might roll their eyes at this but there is something about getting yourself and yourself prepped and ready, like have a haircut, go get your nails done, get, get nice clothes, get a bra that fits. I mean like starting back and I was still in a feeding bra and I was like this is horrendous. I mean that click clip sound like obviously I wasn't doing that work, but it's like no, no, no, that needs to. You need to kind of get your work uniform on. And even that might not work for some people, that definitely works for me. It's like game on, like we're ready to go, I've got my uniform on, I'm prepped, you know that also helps. So it's also understanding yourself.
Speaker 2:Where do you get confidence from? Is it friends? Is it family? Is it, you know, getting your outfit ready? Is it your partner? Is it revisiting stuff? Is it coaching? And it might not just be one thing, it's a multitude of different things. And also saying to people I found, oh, I'm feeling really lacking confidence. Well, why I just feel like I don't know what I'm doing? Well, have you forgotten all the things that you knew for the? You know the 10 years before you went off on maternity leave? No, okay. Well, what is it then? No-transcript in the toilet, like I can't do this, but then you need to come out, wipe your eyes and go breathe deep. Look in that mirror, I can do this and I am doing this. My god, I'm juggling, you know, having a child, or more than one child? Now I'm actually doing this.
Speaker 1:So when we, when we spoke a couple months ago, you spoke and I loved this phrase that you used about getting your pink back and I loved it and I really resonated with it because I don't know, particularly with you with your MS as well, I felt that I had a really traumatic time getting pregnant and actually it took me a couple of years to sort of heal from that mentally and then, like you, all of a sudden I felt like I was like reborn and coming into life again and like that kind of color coming back in yeah, absolutely like yeah, and it does, and that kind of phrase getting a pink back.
Speaker 2:And you know people haven't heard of it, which I'm sure most people have. Now it's how flamingos both parents actually lose their color. When they're bringing their little offspring I don't know what baby baby flamingos are called yeah, little chicks, whatever flamingo chicks when they're bringing them up, they lose their color and gradually their color comes back. And there's loads of brands and clothing brands et cetera now. So I'm not the first person to use it, but it just really resonated with me. It was like I suddenly felt like hang on, yeah, I've come out of that almost like nine well, not quite nine years, but seven and a half, eight years of different things being quite traumatic. You know, I definitely had PTSD over some of those things.
Speaker 2:I had some therapy during that time, but now I'm in a much different, much better place, making that decision to move jobs at the right time and to get okay with the fact that I wasn't doing the thing that my brain was telling me to do, which was go for the bigger job, go for an HR director.
Speaker 2:That is what you should be doing to prove that you can do this and you're about to head into your forties and that's where you should be and going. No, I'm going to do something that feels authentic, that feels right for me, that will open loads of development and that's okay, that that's not the next step up. It's a step sideways, which actually will be a step up for me and a change, and I felt that really kind of empowering that I've made that decision and it's okay. That decision's absolutely right for me. And then, with that, suddenly there was this okay, and what else do I want to do? And what other things have I put on pause? Because I've been been pregnant, I've been a mom and I've gone through that. And it happens regardless of whether you have IVF or not or have gone through a diagnosis or not, things do get put on pause or you do have to have different priorities or just the reality of life. And for me it was like, okay, I wanted to go back to running the marathon, them doing the.
Speaker 1:London Marathon. Yeah, so obviously.
Speaker 2:I'd started with training for that when I lost the control of my leg and and had to can it that year, obviously, and the advice was don't run now. But they'd never said, never run again. And my MS nurse was like, no, of course you can, you will be able to, but it's just resetting that expectations and that goal. I'm not going to do it. In that time that I was pushing too hard to do, which probably contributed to me having that major attack that got me diagnosed and thank God I did get diagnosed. But so, yeah, the beginning of the year I ran the London Marathon. So last June I hadn't worn trainers for running for eight and a half years nine, eight and a half years so I put my trainers back on and went for my first 2.5K jog and then I was like, no right, I'm doing this. And I was like I also need to get okay with the fact that I have MS. There's no problem with that, it's under control and I shouldn't feel ashamed of it and that's with me. I don't judge anyone else, but why do I judge? We're our own worst critics, aren't we? And you know, we all know that. So I was like I need to run for the MS Society and as a way of giving others some hope or some comfort or I don't know. Just yeah, you can work, you can live, you can have a life, you can have children and deal with a condition. Again, I do know that I'm lucky that mine has been held at bay, but I have done things to improve that and I took a plunge. I didn't have to have the trial drug. There was another drug on offer and I was like, no, I, I'm going to do this, hit me with the hard stuff, let's go for it. But there were major risks attached to that and I had to sign a contract. I had to sign a five-year contract with the NHS to confirm that every month I would go for blood and urine tests at King's, and that was quite a commitment, you know, on top of everything else that's going on. So, yeah, so getting my pink back is very much about okay, this is me and what I'm, what can I do? My time, yeah, what am I doing? And obviously it's different. It's not all about me and it's not about being selfish, because it's come first and time and my husband and life, et cetera. But so doing the marathon was important for me to go back to do that and to use it as a platform to be open about what I've been through on the MS side and to raise money for a fantastic charity that supports people they supported me loads and they support others and puts loads of money into medical research as well. So, and I, yeah, raised loads of money for that, which is great. In fact, I've got half marathon coming up in a few weeks time, which, yeah, I'm really excited about.
Speaker 2:I haven have done as much training. I thought I'd do carry on the marathon level training, but obviously as soon as you're in the marathon, you're like I don't need to be doing, you know, 20 mile runs. So, um, but yeah, and that will be kind of the end of that fundraising for the MS Society. So that's really exciting, um, and then other things, just like well, the coaching, as I mentioned before. So I'm starting in a couple of weeks a coaching course.
Speaker 2:Well, it's an accredited coaching course. I'm going to have to do a number of hours to become an accredited coach, and that, for me, was like this is something that I'm really passionate about. I'm really like working with people. I need to go on my own development. I definitely need to slow the pace down sometimes, I need to get better at listening, but I'm really interested in that space and, having had a lot of coaching and been involved with setting up, coaching and being coached myself in the past, I feel like and also because the role that I do in the HR space it does lend itself to working with people and I just want to hone those skills and who knows where it will take me in the future. But again it felt like this is the right choice right now. I mean, it's also a bonkers decision because we've got school and nursery and half marathons and my husband's always doing some exercise and we both have, uh, full-on jobs and let's just throw in the mix doing a six-month course with four to five hours coursework a week.
Speaker 2:But you know, sometimes, sometimes you just go, great for having you and that was that kind of thing you've just got to. You know, it feels like the right time and if I'm feeling it more than thinking, if I think about it, I think myself out of it and then another year will pass and another year will pass, but um, so yeah, so that's super exciting, and actually super exciting that I'll be looking for pro bono clients as well so that also I was going to say then how can people contribute?
Speaker 1:what sort of clients are you looking for then?
Speaker 2:so from september I will be looking for three. So we're september now. So this, yeah, this september, from this september it has to be after the first course date, basically. So the first course date is the 23rd 24th, so from that point, the late september, um, I'll be looking for yeah, three, I guess, kind of coachees to work with over, I suppose, a six-month period. There'll be a coaching session an hour long, maybe 90 minutes, once every four weeks. I'll obviously be in training so I'll be using different skills, trying out different coaching techniques, wanting their support, thoughts and feedback on that.
Speaker 2:I'm pretty open to people. My passion, obviously, is working with people going through kind of traumatic time in terms of diagnosis or IVF. But at the same time, I'm very mindful that you might not want, whilst I've got loads of experience in that space, might not want me trying out coaching on you when you're going through that. So I'm interested in women, I suppose, at that point in their life where they're like what now? How do I get my pink back? What should I be doing? How do I engage with what I really want to do versus what I think society or the pressures or my upbringing has told me I should be doing. So those are the types of people that I just think would be I'm in the right space and that I would really like to kind of help coach, and that would be a good way for me also to get up my hours, but also something for them, and obviously it would be yeah absolutely so how can people contact you then?
Speaker 2:if they're interested, so direct message me through LinkedIn. That would be the best way.
Speaker 1:So put that in Callie Crow, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Exactly yeah, you can find me there. It's like Callie Crow, isn't it? Exactly yeah, you can find me there. It's with a K-A-L-I. I need to. I mean, there's loads of things I need to do. I need to get more active on LinkedIn, because that's fallen by the wayside. So over time that will be, but that's definitely somewhere that people can get in touch, yeah, and then I'll talk them through what the process is We'll put.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 2:Oh no, thank you. It's been really great chatting and I think I've done loads of talking. Sorry about that.
Speaker 1:But no, I've absolutely enjoyed it. Thank you ever so much. Not at all.
Speaker 2:And great to speak to you you too.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work it Like A Mum podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe, and don't forget to share the link with a friend. If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode. You can also follow my recruitment site Investing in Women on LinkedIn, facebook and Instagram. Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.