Work It Like A Mum
Work It Like A Mum
From Recruitment to Reinvention: Thriving Through Career Pivots and Life Changes
In this exciting Work It Like a Mum episode, we chat with Lucinda Reader, founder of Ravelo HR, about her unique journey through recruitment, career transitions, and motherhood. Lucinda shares how she balanced career growth with her personal life and offers insights from her vast experience in recruitment.
Episode Highlights:
- Early Career: Lucinda began her career at 17 in a boutique recruitment agency, learning the ropes in the fast-paced recruitment world.
- Harrods & Luxury Brands: Lucinda transitioned to in-house recruitment at Harrods, where she built a successful recruitment model for luxury brands like Chanel and Gucci.
- Motherhood & Career Shifts: She opens up about how motherhood and overcoming a life-threatening illness reshaped her career goals.
- Founding Ravelo HR: Lucinda discusses creating her HR consultancy and how she helps organisations with talent mapping and succession planning.
- Tips for Job Seekers: Based on her years of recruitment experience, she shares advice on creating standout CVs and acing interviews.
Key Takeaways:
- Focus on achievements in your CV
- Be prepared to share your accomplishments in interviews confidently
- Stay flexible and open to new career opportunities
- Balancing work and family is possible with resilience and support
Tune in for career tips, personal insights, and inspiring stories from Lucinda's journey!
Show Links:
Connect with our host, Elizabeth Willetts, on LinkedIn
Connect with Lucinda Reader on LinkedIn
Ravello HR Website
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Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life. I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women job board and community. In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business. They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, set boundaries and balance, the challenges they've faced and how they've overcome them to define their own versions of success. Shy away from the real talk? No way. Money struggles, growth, loss, boundaries and balance we cover it all. Think of this as coffee with your mates, mixed with an inspiring TED Talk sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school. So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, make sure you're cosy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams, or just survive Mondays. This is the Work it Like A Mum podcast. This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women. Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the uk's most family friendly and forward-thinking employers. Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you. They're proud to partner with uk's most family friendly employers across a range of professional industries, ready to find your perfect job. Search their website at investinginwomencouk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity. Now back to the show.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Work it Like A Mum podcast. Today, I am delighted to be chatting with Lucinda Reader, who is the founder of Ravello HR, and we have got an action-packed episode for you. Today we're going to be talking all about Lucinda's journey to motherhood and what happened to her after she became a mum in terms of her career, and Lucinda's also going to be offering some advice as well, and she offers her clients in regards to talent mapping, succession planning and how to create a really robust and successful organization. And, with her background in recruitment, I know lucinda is also going to offer some recruitment tips as well if you are looking for work. Um, thank you so much, lucinda, and we've had a little chat with before we record and we have like, literally, yeah, much to talk about. So you started your career in recruitment is that right?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, yeah. So I started in a little boutique agency in canary, wolf when I was 17 pounding the phones yeah, yeah, old school recruitment. Running around to all the offices, yeah oh wow.
Speaker 1:Do you know? I started recruit like you and actually I don't know how long you worked there, but I just think that was the best education.
Speaker 2:I could have had totally it. It was an eye-opener into the world of work and actually it was a brutal sales environment and I think it just gave me the best grounding for then, you know, to take a career forward and actually to work in a really hard environment and know what the difference is between a hard environment and a toxic environment yes, I do what you mean and sometimes actually I had this conversation with the lady I work with and she's a recruiter and I mean she worked for, you know, a hard recruitment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, well, and actually I said you know, a lot of people might have said it was toxic and at some point, yeah, yeah, yeah, but if you were a good recruiter and you did a good job you could thrive 100%.
Speaker 2:Those were the days when you really could. If you put the work in, yeah, you really could thrive and you could out. You had to outlast everyone, didn't you?
Speaker 1:yeah, I know what you mean and you know what it was that and you actually you could rise really quick the career ladder just for, basically, that's, staying put doing your job not getting to like, I think, building that resilience you know, and you know a lot of people throw in the towel and actually I've found this with running. Now your own business.
Speaker 2:What a good education, oh my God. Like in terms of, yeah, not throwing the towel in and outlasting people. I think that has come from my ground. You know my start as an agency recruiter at the bottom as well.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely I was like you and, yeah, I enjoyed it. Though I love it, I love to realize I feel really lucky that I got, like you, into a job I enjoyed yeah, I know totally totally so how long were you in um agency for? And then did you ever move in house. But how did?
Speaker 2:yeah. So I had a bit of an odd career journey. So I did that for a while and then the agency changed and that agency actually went bust and I was like you know what I fancy doing something a bit different. So I went. I had a love of the finer things in life. So I saw some Harrods Christmas jobs so I thought why not? So I ended up going to work at Harrods and I started in anti-money laundering, which is a very odd thing to do. That's not the right treatment. I know Well, kind of is, in a way, because you had to hold your nerve. I mean, I was like 18, counting at 250 grand's worth of cash for like an ugly ark. Do you know what I mean? So it was, um, it was really high pressured and really interesting and I loved it. You know it was a fabulous world. And then I moved back into um recruitment in Harrods.
Speaker 1:So I went in-house how did you find it the difference between agency and in-house?
Speaker 2:it was very so I went into so I ran all the temp campaigns. So I so my, my party line used to be I hire father christmas hopefully there's no children watching this, um, because there is only one but I used to hire all the fun you've had to hire, I did and I, so I used to hire all of those and I used to run all the temp campaigns. So it was actually really similar to agency in terms of the pressure, the deadlines, you know, the absolute pounding the phones non-stop, um, like assessment centers it was very like. So that transition actually was quite easy. Um, and then I moved into more of a specialist function and then I actually set up.
Speaker 2:So Harrods wanted the um HR function to be a um financially positive area. So they wanted an idea to make money basically from HR. So a couple of us came up with this idea of actually building a Harrods agency, which we did. So the concept was we sold. So when um, all the concessions in Harrods, all the luxury brands, wanted to bring their people in, if they wanted to go through an agency, they had to go through store approvals, which that in itself is probably another podcast of what that actually was and what they were assessing the people on. I'm sure there's a lot of headlines about Harrods and you know it. There wasn't a quite a toxic culture at um one point in terms of, like how people were assessed, right, um. But so we came up with this idea of what we would do is sell to the concessions in agency as an agency and we would hire their people in because we knew what could look like um for Harrods. You know, we knew the environment. So I started that and it was incredibly successful.
Speaker 2:Um, the, the brands all loved it. Um, I know, I know, I know, yeah, it was, it was and we used to um. So the agencies sorry, the brands didn't have to use us. It was their choice if they wanted, and at that time there was some other really incredible big retail agencies that they used. So we were going up quite against quite a big competition and it was myself and Kate we, who I then went on to work with in Metro Bank. She's fabulous. But we, we built it and we went in and this is where I think I've met you before my boss at the time. So, kate's from Bristol, really strong Bristol accent. I'm from Kent, you know, quite a strong southeast accent. Then he sat us down and said girls, you need to go to some sort of finishing school. Like you're never going to be able to sign the big brands talking the way you talk.
Speaker 2:We were a bit like luckily we've got quite good sense of humours, um yeah um, I know, and so we sort of found it quite funny and went all right. So this woman came in and taught us how to, you know, do all this bizarre stuff, stuck a pole in our back so we just, oh my gosh, you did actually do it. Yeah, we did it. We did it. Um, I thought it was hilarious. Obviously did absolutely nothing different as a result. Um, just had a bit of a laugh and it had a day out really and, um, you know, subsequently we signed everyone. We signed Chanel, louis Vuitton, gucci. We had all the big brands. They loved working with people that actually were real and in Harrods that, yeah, people loved it.
Speaker 2:They, you know, we got really well with all of them yeah, you know, when you think about the queen, I remember her dress that was from Liverpool and I think supposedly had quite a strong yeah, yeah yeah, exactly, people like talking to people and working with people that they can, I suppose, suppose like find some common ground with, and it not just be, you know, because obviously Harrods has got a reputation of being, you know, relatively stuck up in a lot of ways. And you know, when people then met Kate and I, they were like, oh OK.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm not a Harrods customer, but if I was, you know I would then feel really comfortable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that was it. It and the candidates felt that, you know, we were able to, I suppose, talk to the candidates at a different level, so we managed to hire some incredible candidates. I mean, a lot of them are still there. Um, it's really nice. You know, you see the journeys that they've gone on or some of them are now. You know GMs at big um, like with some of the big luxury brands. Still, it's great, it was amazing, it was an incredible experience like something like you can't I don't think you can ever compare anything to Harrods.
Speaker 1:It's just a it's, it's it's just, I mean it's totally totally, totally yeah it's a destination, isn't it?
Speaker 2:very much so, very much so. Like I know some people that still that you know, still work there and I'm like god, I can't imagine that being my like. You become institutionalized by it. Um, and that's fine, like you know, that's great. But you know, for me, I was like I need, I need to see more, I need to do more, I need to work with different people, different industries. This can't just be it for me yeah, so what happened next then?
Speaker 1:so what was the prop to?
Speaker 2:the move out, farrah. So I um, so I was about 24, um became really unwell, had sepsis, um, nearly lost my life to sepsis and I just went. You know what this can't. I went through a bit of a, you know, finding yourself experience, as silly as that sounds. But I just thought this can't be all there is to life. Like you know, I traveled a bit, but hadn't. I'd always wanted to travel. I didn't go to university, I to life. Like you know, I traveled a bit, but I'd always wanted to travel.
Speaker 2:I didn't go to university, I went straight into work, you know, left school at 15, straight into work and I was like I just need a bit of a, I need to see the world and actually do it on my terms, without, you know, a two week holiday. So I actually went to Vegas. It was amazing. It gave me this epiphany of like, oh my god, I went to Miami and Vegas and I was like I just need to see more of the world. So I came back, quit my job, got rid of my flat I lived in Bromley at the time, a lovely little flat got rid of that, sold my car and just booked a one-way ticket to Australia. I'll work it out along the way. Um, and I did. I was in Australia for about nine months worked for Hayes, um out there oh, thank you.
Speaker 2:I forgot to say that to you before I know, yeah, I worked for them in an RPO really cool company called Stryker, huge medical devices company, um. So I did a bit of that and thought, do I stay in Australia but I'm really, really close to my family? Yeah, and I'd met my now husband, but I actually met him.
Speaker 2:No, I met him um but so I thought you know what I don't know that I could do it out here long term. Um, so I came home and literally I think I'd been home about a week and I spoke to Ross, who at that time was the GM of Kurt Geiger and.
Speaker 2:I'd worked. Yeah, so they were my client in Harrods, spoke to Ross and he was like we need someone in recruitment to run the team. So I don't think I was. I was back like three weeks and already started working in Kurt Geiger and back as their recruitment team. That is a good thing about recruitment.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, it's like a global role. You can literally you know you can go to Australia do the role.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally, and because in Australia the work ethic is quite different. Right, they really value their um downtime, which I totally get, yeah, um. But if you were English or Irish and you'd been in recruitment and agency in the UK or Ireland, you had a very different approach to recruitment, and so the Aussies loved it because we were really aggressive recruiters and just banged out results so you could if you were yeah, you could get a job like no one's business out there. The money was incredible. The work-life balance was incredible. It was a great. Yeah, I think it still is yeah, I think that's probably why all the doctors go back.
Speaker 2:I know right, you just get this great work. You know everyone looks at you like you're mad if you're still in the office at half past five yeah, I know you've been in recruitment.
Speaker 1:I'm going to touch on this. People, yeah, today about they're looking for work and you have probably seen cvs, thousands of cvs, in your career. Yeah, so what do you think makes you know a good candidate? What would make you you know? Look, maybe consider picking your phone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, present themselves one I think, like starting from the cv, it's being really clear about your experience and your achievements. I love to look at a really simple CV, like a two-pager depend, you know, if possible, and just really clear headlines on what you did. And you know not like you know answering the phone no one cares about that, like everyone just assumes you do that anyway. It's like the really clear what did you do, what made you the best at your job and what were your key achievements? Um, because you know, if I'm hiring for I don't know an analyst or something, and then I'm picking up a cv and I'm looking at what you know how they've reduced costs or they've increased um, like, uh, customer satisfaction, and I can really clearly see then that's a really easy candidate to present um and to sell it.
Speaker 1:So I think it's about being really clear on your CV and I think, yeah, interesting, yeah, I really agree, you've got an office manager on. Someone had put fast typer. I mean, I was like everyone's quite a fast typer now.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's not the 60s anymore like probably your words per minute back then were important, but now, like no one just assumes you're about if I, if you're not, then you've probably got an issue yeah, really, I think that's a really good point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, what about interview?
Speaker 2:I think interview it's preparation. So I am. One of the things I do, I think I told you is I work with a charity, so we go into prisons and help um, yeah, help offenders to actually when they, when they're released, to go into work and to rehabilitate, and so one of the things that you know I really focus on with them is, you know, you need to prepare. You can't prepare for every eventuality and interview, but actually you can prepare the key things for whatever role that you're going for. So if you're going for a customer service role, you need to have some really clear examples and you need to work on them, you need to practice them and you need to make sure that you believe in them.
Speaker 2:And you know you, probably, you know I do always advise people to use the STAR method. It's old but it works, you know. And in preparation, but I think it's just, you know, having examples prepared that you can then flex to whatever the question is. And then knowing the company like this is my biggest bugbear and I used to. I've worked for some companies with really strong cultures and you know, now it's at our fingertips researching. You know you, you can go on glass door, you can go on, you know, um trust, pilot reviews, you can go on all these different avenues really easily to look at what a company's culture is, um. So actually knowing the company that you're you know you're interviewing for is really important absolutely.
Speaker 1:Oh, there's some really good tips. Thank you, I know that will help so many people, hopefully. Yeah, your markets, obviously, but you know it's always hard, isn't it, if you're looking for it totally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so totally soul-destroying as well I get it absolutely well.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. That was really helpful. You were working for Kit Geiger and that was a great man.
Speaker 2:And then, yeah, I worked but I kind of felt, like you know, I was running the risk of being pigeonholed into retail because I had such a strong background in retail. Actually, I needed to add a different element of experience and industry to my CV. So I decided to go to Metro Bank um, which so I went in there to run the specialist recruitment function um, I joined Metro at the time when it was really high growth. So, yeah, it was an incredible time to join. We all still did the conga around the office, as we've heard about the conga on the induction days. You know pictures of me of metro man on my first day.
Speaker 2:It was an incredible high growth. It was still in that like startup phase, um, and actually it was. It was totally eye-opening to be part of that and to then move into financial services, yeah, and learn about, you know, and because I ran the specialist recruitment team, it was really niche technical roles that we were recruiting because it was everything um from tech, you know, to risk, to um like financial conduct. It was really interesting um to do that and so I did that for a long time and then kind of felt again like I was. You know I'd been in recruitment through it, so I did.
Speaker 2:Whilst I was at Harrods I did a stint as a HR advisor for a little while and thought you know, I probably need to round myself as a HR professional, because I always had this intention that I would go out on my own um. So there was an opportunity to move into the business partner team, which I did um so yeah, to move into.
Speaker 1:You know, if you're wanting a bit of a career change, to do it yeah, definitely and it was.
Speaker 2:It was a sidestep, right, it wasn't a promotion, and you know I was very open at that time to, you know, taking a sidestep because I knew it would be better for me. So I think if you're in an organization, it's easier to make that sidestep. It's not always about moving up. Moving sideways is equal, especially if you're going to be able to learn a new skill, really important, um. So yeah, so I moved into business partner function, looked after the commercial teams which was great learned about how a bank essentially works and how they make money, um, and then sort of spent a little while with them and then ended up being promoted. So my last role at Metro was head of business partnering.
Speaker 1:It seems to me that you always wanted to work for yourself yeah as like a child.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's kind of like it's bred into me and my family and you know, my dad ran his own business. My granddad was a really pop pop Italian pop pop was a really successful entrepreneur and businessman and I think it's just always been. You know, I'm married while my husband is an entrepreneur. I think it's just always been in me to do that.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna jump ahead next, I'm gonna do because my husband isn't an entrepreneur, he works for someone. I always think, oh, I'm pleased in a way, because I think, yeah, it's really difficult if there was like two people that are like sort of this sort of personality, I know. And you have to be very driven, don't you to, to run your own company?
Speaker 2:yeah, definitely, and, like you know, for years we always had that. You know, I always had a stable job and my husband was always you the one that took the risks. So then, when we moved to a point in our lives where we had two young children, and then suddenly we're like, do you know what? We're both going to take risks, it's scary, it is really scary, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So no you talk me through then what happened in the lead up to motherhood? We used to. Where were you working you?
Speaker 2:working then. Yes, so I was at Metro Bank. I worked at Metro Bank and so, as a result of when I had sepsis, I was told I'd probably never have children, naturally, if at all. Um, so went through, you know, jumped all the hoops, went through all of that and the outcome was that we needed to have IVF. Yeah, um, but it was covid at the time. Um, so we sort of obviously had to make a life decision there of we had to, you know, go to a private clinic and I was really lucky at the time.
Speaker 2:Actually, my boss, who was there when I made that decision, was incredible and and you know what this I think this shows you the difference between working for a company and working for a person so he literally, you know he could tell something wasn't right with me. We get well, you know, I still I spoke to him this morning. He's a good friend now but he was like there's something not right with you, like, talk to me about it. And I just had a major like meltdown. I was like you know, I've got all this going on. He's like just go home, I want you to take a week off. I don't want to hear from you. It wasn't holiday, it wasn't compassionate leave you. I just don't want to see you. I want you to go and just think about what you want, and you know what that was like one of the most poignant moments of my life because, as a result of that, it led to us making a decision to go.
Speaker 2:You know, start IVF and you know it's such a big decision, isn't it? It's frightening. It's such a big decision, but had I have not had a boss that empowered me to make me feel like I could make I had the space to make that decision. It was just, you know, I, he, he was he's. It shows you what a good leader can do. Yeah, and that wasn't like. You know, you didn't need to do that. That's not something you can train into someone. That is just like the difference between like nature and nurture, almost, isn't it?
Speaker 2:um yeah, but then he um, so he left, he went off to um, go to a different company. And so when I started IVF, I had a different boss who you know, when it's new, it's difficult to you know she was supportive, no, no, she was supportive, you know as much as she needed to be. But what I found really odd I don't know about odd, but was that like people just felt really uncomfortable talking about it. Yeah, and I'd say to people know, I'm going to be off this week because I'm going through IVF, they'd go, okay, yeah and no, I know this is women, men, and no one felt comfortable talking about it. And I was like that's really funny, isn't it? I wonder if I was to tell you that I was having, you know, an ankle operation people don't want to.
Speaker 1:I don't know. People are always so worried about saying yeah.
Speaker 2:I know. So I kind of made it my mission to really talk about it and, as a result, obviously reviewed all of the um, parental IVF policies and what we did but yeah, anything when you were doing it then, or?
Speaker 2:not no, I mean they were. You know, I was a senior leader, so I think I probably was given, you know, quite a lot of freedom and flexibility. I worked from home Obviously it was COVID, so we were all at home. I didn't have to go into an office every day. It was very different for me, but then I was very aware of that and, you know, I always have been very aware of my journey should then influence and dictate everyone else's journey, and if that's been positive, great. If that that's been negative, then we need to change it. So, as a result, we did look at the policies and we actually made sure that there was support in place for people going through that um, not just, you know, oh, you can take a day off when you need it, like you know, one day's um emergency leave or something. I mean that's just ridiculous, yeah, yeah. So as a result, you know, I hopefully left them with a legacy of actually more of an understanding, some support networks, some places to talk to um, because that's really important.
Speaker 2:You know, I felt totally, you know, none of my. I had one friend that had gone through IVF and other than that, no one had any idea what it was like to go through. It. Was that friend at work or somewhere else? No, no, she, she was an old friend, but you know, like not someone I talk to every day, so it's a really lonely thing to go through. And, like you know, when people ask you sort of how are you, it's like well, I'm really not okay. I'm having to stab myself twice a day and I feel horrendous. I'm emotionally totally like I've got no more capacity to take on anything else. But other than that I'm fine.
Speaker 1:How are you, but yeah, I'm good. How are you? You know, I didn't even thought. I wrote a post the other week and it like took off, because I said that the thing that affected my career more than having children was actually going through fertility treatment. Really, yeah, because I just got to put my life on hold, put my career on hold. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like really drawn anxious and that affects your performance totally you don't have any more capacity.
Speaker 2:Like you only have 100 energy tokens a day and if you've used 101 of those and you're in that overdraft already because, yeah, totally like you're, you're giving your all to this, you're spending. You're not only spending thousands financially, you're spending every last bit of energy you've got. On this, yeah, and that's what I think people don't understand like a working environment, like there's no space for people to have do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:yes, and I didn't travel for my job. I could see. If you traveled, how could you do? You know I mean?
Speaker 2:I know well, even like I, just it really opened my eyes because I was like you know, I was at home so I could be quite flexible. You know, I could do my injections whenever I wanted, but actually I used to have to leave the house at half past six in the morning and I wouldn't be home till half past seven at night when I worked in London oh, you know, because I was in Kent. So, like, how did people do this before working from home? Yeah, you know people were going. You know everyone was going through this. I had no idea.
Speaker 2:It's things like getting a seat on the train, like you know you're in agony, right, you're bloated, you're bruised, you're confused. You haven't got a baby on board sign because you haven't got a baby on board yet, you don't know. But you really do need to sit down and you know it's that before you've even got to work in the morning, you've gone through this unbelievable like stress. Yeah, and no one's aware of it. People just go. How you feeling? Yeah, fine, thanks, okay, anyway, have you got those numbers?
Speaker 2:yeah, you're right, I know it's so hard, so hard and people are so uncomfortable talking about it so uncomfortable talking like I tell everyone, anyone that'll listen, I'll, you know, I'll be really specific about what it's like. You know, if I ever hear of anyone you know sort of you know a friend of a friend, of a friend of a friend, I'll be like, if they want, here's my number, like please talk to me about it. And that's happened right a few since then. I've, you know, people have come to me and I'm like I feel great that I can hopefully give someone an insight into what it's really like yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:So you had your, your son.
Speaker 2:I had my son, um, I I'll be honest, I didn't feel particularly supported while I was on maternity leave. Yeah, I found it really weird because I'd gone from this. Like you know, I played a pivotal role in the organization. I went to board most weeks, you know, was really comfortable having open challenge with the CEO and then, all of a sudden, I was on maternity leave. Let you know, metro obviously went through quite a difficult time in terms of, like you know, people changes, financial changes, everything, structural changes, and I felt like I had no idea, you know, and that's fine, you know, maybe I should have been, you know, you learn from it, right? Maybe I should have been clearer about how I was involved in it. But I felt as though, you know, I'll be honest, when it came to annual review, I felt like, because I was on maternity leave, that was all kind of you know, because I'd gone on maternity leave in the when did I go off? In the June, so I'd had like a solid six months in the business and then, by the time review period came around, in like February, I felt like I'd just been totally forgotten about and all that incredible work that I'd done, because I wasn't there to talk about it. You're not there to advocate for yourself, are you totally? You know, and I was always one of the, you know, not the loudest, but a big voice in the room because I am quite challenging and you know I do say what's right because it needs to be said. Um, and I felt really odd about it. Um, and then it was the.
Speaker 2:So my son was born in the July and then in the March I found out I was pregnant again. You still are Naturally, naturally, I was still on that thing. Yeah, a little surprise, I say my son was IVF and my daughter was gin. So that is how. And then I was like, oh my, my god, I've got this kind of like not, you know, particularly warm relationship with my employer, but I actually need to go back early. Um, because you know, I wanted to get my second was due in the October and I was going to take a bit of extended leave and not go back until like the September. So I was like, okay, so you know, had the really uncomfortable conversation with my boss and I look back and I think, but why was that uncomfortable?
Speaker 1:yeah, I went back and I remember I started back at work three months pregnant with my. I didn't dare tell her until I was like, and I was like quite big, I mean 20 weeks, aren't you? Oh yeah, it's no hiding, it really, isn't it like? You'd like not lost anyway.
Speaker 2:Well, that is a benefit actually. Yeah, you can. Yeah, you can't go over it, can't you go? Yeah, oh, you know, just to still carry me first. I do remember being really nervous but now I'm kind of angry at myself for being nervous. Do you know? Do you know?
Speaker 1:what I mean. I think it's because we all know what happens exactly, especially like working in HR.
Speaker 2:I've been on the other end of those conversations yeah you kind of see all the skeletons, don't you?
Speaker 2:you know, you know the conversations that happen. You're like, oh god, I'm that person. But you know what my but she was really supportive and like she, you know she, she didn't make me feel uncomfortable, she was super supportive. Um was like you know, it was great. You know we agreed. So I came back and did four days um and you know she, you know she, I, she was totally supportive, but I but then when I returned, so I went back in the June yeah, I went back in the June and I just felt a bit like what's my job?
Speaker 1:like they were in a different office. They've moved off, but you're like you feel very disjointed and there was yeah, there was no like re-induction, there was no like.
Speaker 2:This is like and again, like you say, there was.
Speaker 2:So many so we were the majority of time at home, so all my stuff was sent up to home. I was sent like this scabby laptop that had, like you know, like it was like all crusty, where someone and I was like guys can't I'm not one to not speak up, but I was like this is, this is rank. Like what are you doing to me? Like I'm not expecting a red carpet, but I'd at least like a bit of a re-induction. There was a lady doing my job. That was still there, yeah, and so I kind of was like okay, so what? Like what do you want me to do? And I think it was a bit like well, you're only back for a couple of months.
Speaker 1:It kind of didn't matter exactly, I don't know, just cut people's holiday covers, yeah. Yeah, you're just doing that for like four or five months.
Speaker 2:It's just basically the cover, yeah, and then the team yeah, but you know, I mean you're just kind of used to this filler and I was, and I mean I was very open in my feedback. I was like you know, I mean you're just kind of used as this filler and I was, and I mean I was very open in my feedback. I was like you know, I think if this is how we re-induct everybody and I'm in HR, right, so if this is how we re-induct everybody, that comes back into the business like, well, we've got an issue that we need to look at our maternity levers, you know, because this isn't you know, and again, I was really open about it and it became a really positive conversation. Yeah, and as a result, I said to my boss you know, I'm not going to come back like this, isn't? I feel like I'd got to a point. I was like the head of HRBP and I didn't.
Speaker 2:The next role would have been a CPO there. I wasn't interested. Um, so I was like you know, I want you to recruit my job permanently because there's clearly a need. I saw, like you know, I looked at the team and I was like they need someone to put their arms around and they need stability. That isn't going to be me. I'm telling you now I'm not coming back because this isn't the right place for me anymore.
Speaker 2:You know I'd been there seven years, I'd outgrown it. It needed a fresh and I'm really good at that. You know saying, look, my time in that role is done, you need someone else to take it in a different direction. So again, like it was a really positive, you know, conversation and, as a result, which I totally left on good terms and but I gave really strong feedback and I think that's so important. But I felt, you know, I felt able to do that because that's my natural personality and I felt I had some really good relationships that enabled me to do that. But if you don't, and you're in a really junior position like that must just feel suffocating to be in that yeah, do you know what I?
Speaker 2:mean yeah, so yeah, so I left. So I, so I went on maternity leave and then my daughter's born in October and I left officially as of last October oh right nice yeah, so you definitely knew you wanted to start a business.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I was really open my boss at the time. I said you know, this is what I'm doing, um, I'll stay employed until X. I want you to hire my job permanently and I'll leave you know, at the end of my maternity leave, which I did, um, I'd can't. You know. It was one of those things. I probably would have done it after my son, had I not fallen pregnant again yeah yeah I'd can't.
Speaker 2:You know I'd had that I'd been through. You've got the itch. You've got the itch and I was like I just I really like project work. I'm really good at, you know, delivering short-term projects, you know even longer term, but project work and I was like you know you can't really do that as much when you work, um, for a business. So I kind of knew that that was what I wanted to do. I just wasn't sure what that looked like. And my husband you know he's so supportive, he was always really encouraging and always sort of gave me that space, even while I was on maternity leave, to actually think about, I think even while I was on maternity leave. You know he should have right, you know we're a partnership, but um gave me that space to actually work out what that looked like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what type? How did you decide what sort of business you wanted to run?
Speaker 2:I kind of went with my. I looked at my career and looked at what had gone really well, but also what I was passionate about and what I enjoyed, because you know you can tell right if someone's trying to sell you something and they're not passionate about it, it comes through. Um. So I thought what am I most the most passionate about? You know. But also what is the neat, what is the niche in the market? Um, because you know you've only got to look on LinkedIn there are thousands of HR consultants. The market's tough at the moment. There's a lot of redundancies and there's a lot of people that are setting up on their own because some of them just don't have a choice.
Speaker 2:They can't secure a permanent job yeah um, so I felt like I need a niche, it needs to be something that's really specific, um, and that's when I was like, okay, what I've always done is built these talent teams, kind of set them up, let them run, and walked away and moved on. So I was like, actually, there's a real opportunity there. Um, and at the very, really early stages of setting up on my own, I had a conversation with Saffron Building Society and they needed exactly that, and I was like this is great, because this is this is exactly what I envisaged, um, and I went in and did it for them and the outcome was exactly what I envisaged. So I was like this works, you know, like, yes, this does work, um, and that's where, yeah, that that's where it came from so what?
Speaker 1:how have you found, like, marketing business? Obviously you know what to do in terms of the job. You know, yeah, you can go in and you can research etc. But what's been the most challenging part of starting business? And then you know how to a bunch of clients.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's at the moment no one's got any money. You know I couldn't have started at a worse time, probably because, you know and again you've only got to look on LinkedIn Some incredible recruiters, in-house recruiters, like heads of talent that I know have been paid a lot of money, but a lot, lot, a really big proportion, like. So then when you're trying to sell to a business that I'm going to, you know, improve your talent function, but you need to pay me to do that. It's like that. You know that's a really hard sell at the moment.
Speaker 2:Um, so that's, you know it's been really challenging. It's it's difficult to articulate to people what I do, because it's not like and I did. You know I have gone down the typical path of, you know, chasing two rabbits and you know I have got a consultancy just a general generalist HR consultancy to the business, which I still do because there's work there, Right, and there's businesses that I kind of started working with that still need servicing. So you know I do that as well, but then trying to then market this side of my business, it that that makes it harder actually?
Speaker 1:yeah, it really does. What's the most, are you? I mean, what's something you've made? Enjoyed that about working for yourself.
Speaker 2:I think it's the flexibility and I know that that's really. It sounds obvious, but it's just being able to go. Do you know what? I'm just going to take myself down to Brighton today, sit in a really nice bougie cafe, drink six pound coffees all day and just do some work down there. Just, you know, it's like me time as well as work time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, and I think as well, like you know, not having set hours means that I'm so productive in the hours that I do work. Yeah, um, like because I'm not just going. Oh well, I work nine to five so I need to take make this task will feel nine to five. Yeah, I just work as and when I need and, don't be wrong, it means working a lot of evenings when the kids are in bed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do that do you know, I mean I struggle now in a weird way, which is bad, really bad, but I've got into this habit now, which is a bad habit.
Speaker 2:I know, but it's kind of like it's yours, isn't it? Yeah, so you know we need to do it. There's always something to do and it's like the nice stuff kind of gets pushed, isn't it like they're looking at your website, like I like all that stuff, like you know, updating your propositions, updating your products, I like all that stuff. But when I've got to deliver for a client, you know that's got to take priority in my working day. So it's those kind of bits that you end up doing in the evening. But it's kind of fun as well, isn't?
Speaker 1:it. I work less hours because I only do three days a week, or like two and a bit of a hobby, isn't?
Speaker 2:it, it is, it actually is a hobby. I'm like I work less hours because I only do three days a week, or like two and a half days a week at the moment, but actually my evening and my weekends are filled, so I probably do a full-time job.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I say that, I say it's a full-time job mine, it is right, it's just not a nine-to-five, but what I don't know about you.
Speaker 2:When you went back to work in between yours, did you go back full-time or part or part? I went back three days.
Speaker 1:Yeah, actually, I mean to be fair, because I was just doing the cover, that's what yeah, yeah, I have to say, looking back, I did have quite a good work-life balance at that point because, yeah, because you're just covering for other people, you can really switch off yeah, yeah, yeah yeah it's not, you know, it's not your baby, is it?
Speaker 2:no, it's not. It's not relying on you. No, you're not the owner of it.
Speaker 1:You're not yeah, you can log off at 5, 5, 30, whenever you've finished. Yeah, yeah, it's true. Whereas you know, when you're the owner and you've got, you're thinking, oh my gosh, I've got invoices. I don't care if they see invoices, that's, I hope they pay off the time. You know you're like that.
Speaker 2:You're chasing contractors to finish things off, but yeah, I know, but I went back four days and I was like this is kind of bullshit because I'm doing a full-time job in four days and and I think the four day I think that is a con it's a con, isn't it? It's such a con because all you're doing is being paid less, but you're still doing the same, like I think it's three days or it's full-time, like I don't think there can be actually because they don't expect to, because you're only three days.
Speaker 2:You're actually doing a weird way get a three-day week or you do a job share, which is is great because you have the ability to then actually have someone to rely on, whereas I just think when you're doing four days, you're just like, well, I'm just doing a full-time job, but I'm just straight, I'm actually just being so efficient, I'm getting it done in four days.
Speaker 1:I think business should do it though, because, like I tried one other day and this sounds, I know, I'll admit, because I hired her to do school hours and my husband was like, oh, do you think you should have hired a full time? But she's got a little boy, yeah, school. And I said no, she wants to um school hours. And I said actually I bet she produces the same amount of work, because I know what I am like at three o'clock you start lagging. So if you're doing work until five and I bet you she doesn't produce that much less, then she would have done it all the time.
Speaker 2:No, 100%, no, I, it's like I work. So I think I said to you before I'm a um, I'm the HR non-exec for the mental health app, which they're incredible. So I do that as like a fractional role, if you like, and I tell you what. Anything they need me to do, I'm so efficient because it's like it's not my full-time job. I have to get it done on the side. I get done so quickly. I'm so efficient. You know they could probably hire a full-time, because when you need to get stuff done, you just do it like there's no, like. Oh well, I'll schedule that out for Thursday at five because it's like I'll just get it done it's.
Speaker 1:What do you think they did? Because I've just finished writing a book I don't know if you know and I've done the first draft and I was like, great, it's all done. And then they sent me I think I was thinking, oh, you need to just write the little acknowledgement, thank you. And I didn't realize there was an headline because they hadn't told me, and so I thought I'll do it next week. I've got a couple of free days next week. And then I was going to take me all afternoon and then they messaged yesterday going oh, it needs to be done by tomorrow. Oh, my god. And then it was like four past three and my children go to an after-school club. And I went to four past four and I literally did it in like 40, 45 minutes. It's been bashed out, it's perfect, but actually it's that deadline, isn't it?
Speaker 2:no, I know, I know I'm a bit weird, though. I like working, so it's kind of like sure, I think I'm better when I'm working. You just kind of give your on it like. It's like your first iteration is probably the best, like if you overthink it, that's probably the worst thing you could do.
Speaker 1:It's amazing, isn't it? They call this thing that Parkinson's law, don't they? They say, if you give yourself like 45 minutes, okay 45 minutes. If you give yourself four hours, if I had to do it next week and now I've got four hours back next week, I know I know you've got lots of you can go now.
Speaker 2:Go and shoot yourself why not?
Speaker 1:yeah, so just before we wrap up, I know we were going to touch about on talent mapping, which I know yeah do that helps make a business successful. So you know there's probably a lot of people I know there is a lot of people that listen to this actually have businesses that have big ambitions for their business. What would be something they could do to have their business success?
Speaker 2:yeah, I talk about this a lot. I, the clients I work with. I don't stop on this because I'm like this is so important. This is the difference between your business succeeding and not.
Speaker 1:I'm like tell it to me now.
Speaker 2:It's like the secret but it's like you know no one tells it to you it's crazy.
Speaker 2:So it's like you need to look at your business right in the next 12 to 24 months and you need to think right, where do I want to be? What does that look like like? What is the future of my business? You need to, like you, look at your business right in the next 12 to 24 months and you need to think right, where do I want to be? What does that look like? Like? What is the future of my business? You need to, like you, look at your goals, your ambitions. You know your targets everywhere you need to get to, and then you need to map it back and go right, what, what skills? This is really important. It's not people, it's skills. What skills do I need in my business to achieve that?
Speaker 2:So, if you're saying that you want to have the best website in your industry, okay, but what web development? You know? What web development skills have you got internally? Like you know, you need to look all of this. If you, if you're a HR business, and you know you want to be defending claims in court, okay, so what's the knowledge that you've got in your business? Yeah, you need to look at all the skills. You need to map that out. Go, these are the skills I need, ideally in a time frame. So you might not need them yet. You know, you might have milestones, you might have um income, you might have funding, like, when do I need these skills?
Speaker 2:And then you need to look at your current people and say, okay, I've got John. He at the moment is these are his skills at the moment. But you know what, actually, with some training and with some development, whether that's internal or external, we can probably get him to here to learn the skill, because it's kind of within his realms or we've got zero chance of him ever getting to that point, in which case we know we're going to need to bring the skill in externally. So it's like, then you're. Then you start to do some succession planning and say, okay, what does that look like in the market? What's the? You know? What kind of salary is he? Looking at, what's the budget? What's the? You know, actually, is that such a hot skill at the moment that you're going to pay such a premium that you're better off bringing someone in now, you know, on 30 grand less or whatever, who hasn't got the skills yet? Right, has got.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then actually investing in them and training them and then, and then people go, oh, they might do that, and then leave. It's like, yeah, they might, or you could look after them, make them feel really valued and part of your business. So they don't right, how about that? That's an option. Um, so it's then. So then you go okay, we've got, this is who we've got. This is the skills they've got. These are the skills we need. Where are the gaps? Where can we train people? Because you might have, you know, if you've got a larger business, you might have people that have done this. I've got the skills that you can actually then start to develop people into the roles, as I say. Or you know that you're gonna have to hire externally, in which case you know that you need to set the budget aside and you probably need to start recruiting now.
Speaker 2:Interesting, I love that. It's like the secret sauce when businesses listen and when we do this, it's really funny. I've got this really high performing team. We're hitting all of our targets. No way, really, like you know, I told you it'd work, but you've got to follow the steps that you've got to believe in it and you've got to have really clear visions and really clear goals of where your business is going, because if you don't know where they're going, you're just coasting right and no one's gonna. You know, and I talk a lot about, like your leaders, they need to be like talent retains talent and they need to be really high performing, you know. Personal growth, professional growth, because otherwise people just aren't going to want to work for them. Yeah, I get that. That's my secret sauce.
Speaker 1:I like that. I think it's always like you know, smaller businesses. It's taking the leap, isn't it?
Speaker 2:it's making those first few hires yeah, and and it's not always got to be hires like there's a massive fractional market at the moment yeah um, so actually, you know you could look at just having people in one day a month.
Speaker 2:That might be all you need, yeah, to help you, or freelance, or, like you know, you might be able to find a consultant that will just do one day a month for you. I don't know you're paying 600 pound a day or whatever, but actually what you're, you don't you know what your. Your return on that is huge, because what they'll be able to do is give you everything you need to then take forward. But you've kind of had that expert eye on it. Yeah, yes, that's the real thing. Do you know what I mean? But until you know the skills that you, until you know where you want to go as a business, the skills that you need to get there and the skills you've got in the business, in your whether that's just you, like you know you on your own, you go, okay, that's way out of like marketing, way out of my you know area of expertise web development and design like haven't got a clue. So I know that I need experts in to help me with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, was going to say what's next for your business, yeah, so really it's. You know, I'm starting to work with businesses now where it's kind of like whereas before it was larger companies and actually helping them to turn around existing existing talent teams. It's kind of the setup phase now, which is really exciting. So some of the businesses I'll be hopefully working with over the next six months it will be actually taking them from nothing to 100. Yes, it's going to be really interesting journeys to document as well. But you know, I love. I love helping businesses with their talent, with their recruitment functions, because I'm like it's a science. All you need to do is train your people well, put in processes and infrastructure and it will. It will run itself and it will be so cost effective absolutely.
Speaker 1:Oh, I've really enjoyed chatting with you. Where can people find you, connect with you and learn more about your company?
Speaker 2:yeah, so definitely connect me on LinkedIn. I put a lot of content about talent, about mum life, you know, just general life as well. It's definitely not all work related. There's hopefully a bit of fun in there as well. And then my website is just wwwrivellohrcouk. You can take a look on some of our services on there, but just drop me a message.
Speaker 1:You know, I'm always more than happy to have conversations with people.
Speaker 2:Brilliant, well, lovely. Drop me a message. You know I'm always more than happy to have conversations with people.
Speaker 1:Brilliant, well, lovely. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you, it's been great. I've loved it. Thank you for listening to another episode of the work. It like a mom podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe, and don't forget to share the link with a friend. If you're on linkedin, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode. You can also follow my recruitment site, investing in Women on LinkedIn, facebook and Instagram. Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.