Work It Like A Mum
Work It Like A Mum
Empowering Mums: Balancing Motherhood and Ambition
In this week's Work it Like a Mum episode, we chat with Alex Morgan and Tiffany Scott, the inspiring hosts of the Manbition podcast! They share the story behind their podcast, their journey through motherhood, and how they balance ambition with family life. They reflect on the emotional process of reclaiming personal ambitions and rediscovering passions after giving birth. The conversation highlights the power of personal transformation and evolving into a new version of yourself after motherhood.
What We Cover:
- The emotional journey of rediscovering identity after becoming a mom
- The shift from focusing solely on motherhood to embracing personal goals
- How to balance the desire for self-fulfilment with the demands of parenting
- The importance of embracing personal growth and transformation
Key Takeaways:
- Your identity as a mother doesn’t have to erase your personal ambitions
- Embracing change and personal growth is an essential part of motherhood
- Reclaiming passions can help redefine your life and sense of purpose
- Personal transformation is ongoing and can be a source of empowerment
Why You Should Listen:
This podcast is a must-listen for moms navigating the delicate balance between raising a family and pursuing their own dreams. Alex and Tiffany share honest conversations, real-life stories, and actionable insights to inspire and empower women to embrace their ambitions without guilt. Whether you're struggling with unrealistic expectations or seeking ways to reconnect with your passions, these episodes offer support, encouragement, and practical tips to help you thrive in motherhood and your personal goals.
Show Links:
Connect with Tiffany Scott here
Connect with our host, Elizabeth Willetts Here
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Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life. I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women job board and community. In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business. They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, set boundaries and balance, the challenges they've faced and how they've overcome them to define their own versions of success. Shy away from the real talk? No way. Money struggles, growth, loss, boundaries and balance we cover it all. Think of this as coffee with your mates, mixed with an inspiring TED Talk sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school. So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, make sure you're cosy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams, or just survive Mondays.
Speaker 1:This is the Work it Like A Mum podcast. This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women. Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers. Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you. They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries, ready to find your perfect job? Search their website at investinginwomencouk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity.
Speaker 1:Now back to the show. Hello, welcome to this week's episode of the Work it Like a Bum podcast. Today I am delighted because I am chatting with the hosts of the Mambition podcast, alex Morgan and Tiffany Scott, and they're going to be telling me all about their podcast, who their podcast is aimed at, who they try and help, the types of guests they interview on their podcast, as well as a little bit about their own experiences of going back to work after maternity leave and what it means to be a working mum in 2024-2025. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having us. It's really exciting. That's all right, so how?
Speaker 1:long have you two known each other for? Have you known each other a long time, oh?
Speaker 2:well, we, we've known each other properly for about just over three years, really, isn't it?
Speaker 3:yeah, we met during the pretty much during the pandemic. I think that's kind of when we really um started becoming friends. But we met through my husband. So, um, I stole Alex my husband so how did yeah?
Speaker 1:so what was the connection then?
Speaker 2:so, I've been friends with Mark, tiffany's husband, for a long time. We've known each other since, um, you know, being at school, being like literally being teenagers, uh, we've been friends a really long time, uh. But Mark lived in London for a while and that's where he met Tiffany and um. During the pandemic they moved back to the northeast and, um, I messaged him actually to say, oh, by by the way, mark, I'm having a baby. He was like, oh, really, so is Tiffany. I was like, oh, that's exciting. Then I said, oh, I'm due, and I told him my due date and he was like Tiffany was due three days after me. So we started messaging a bit about that. And then COVID wasn't ideal for baby groups, was it tiffany?
Speaker 1:no, oh yeah, I felt really sorry for people had a baby then but we were quite lucky because we knew each other.
Speaker 2:Um, I was, I think, a day early on my from my due date and poor tiffany was a good few days late and angry about it, so our boys were actually born 10 days apart and they really like each other.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, we were lucky because we knew each other and we knew lots of other mothers. I'm a bit older than Tiffany and because of that, a lot of our friends had left having babies until they were almost 40. And there was a pandemic. It was too late to decide to wait any longer and see what happened. So, um, I think Ted was baby 11 of well, I've lost track now baby 11 in an 18 month period of time in our group of friends yeah and then he was only the youngest for 10 days before Tiffany's son was born.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you didn't have it.
Speaker 3:This was your nct group really it was no, I think so and I think I think, um, we I don't know why, but we felt we both felt inspired about doing something to the motherhood space. We both were going through that mother, early motherhood experience together and, for some reason, another we kind of felt like we wanted to do something. So in baby groups who were talking about it, we didn't quite know what we wanted to do, but we know we wanted to do something and eventually we decided it was going to a podcast and that's when Alex then came up with the name ambition and then a lot of. There was a lot of procrastination. I think it took about a couple of years.
Speaker 3:Actually we're speaking about this during the pandemic only started my ambition last year. So there was certainly a gap. But I think my ambition brought us together because I felt like Alex was a little bit different, um, in a good way. No, I just feel like Alex had this kind of um, because I think Alex had something, as you, wanted to share with the world. Almost, alex, like, is into like self-development, and I feel like she was the right person to do this with because she had these kind of ideas about doing more in life and not just being mothers, which you know no offence to anyone who was just a mother, but I think we just had this ambition beyond motherhood and we both wanted to do something about it, so it felt right.
Speaker 1:So what did you feel was missing?
Speaker 2:Because you said you felt there was something sort of missing in the motherhood and I have since discovered a few podcasts in that area, but I just kind of felt that there wasn't much that focused on the mother being able to achieve their dreams and ambitions after they'd had a baby. A lot of it's about just juggling life, which is a big thing anyway, but still being able to achieve ambitions is probably something that's not that developed in the kind of motherhood space yeah, yeah, I agree, yeah, no, I agree with Alex.
Speaker 3:I think, um, I felt that I don't know like we're still quite ambitious people, even though it it's obvious it has its restrictions. And I think sometimes, when you're like there have been a good mother kind of contrast, we've been an ambitious person, so it's almost like there's a contrast and I felt like my ambition didn't die when I became a mom. It just kind of had to take a new shape. So we thought we'd get to kind of speak into that I was changing. It's okay to change it, but it's still there.
Speaker 1:I don't. You know, I you really resonate with me and I think there's this whole idea of sacrifice. There's a lot of you have to sacrifice a lot of yourself. When you become a mom, to be like the good mom in inverted commas and you go on instagram and motherhood looks so dreary because I think people on there just and it obviously resonates because they get a lot of likes, but actually it's quite nice what you're doing to show there's something you know outside of just being a mum, which is you know these influences. It's just like a long to-do list of chores around the house and actually that's something you know.
Speaker 2:I think I definitely agree with you there about the kind of um motherhood being made to look like it's all about sacrifice and it definitely, you know, there definitely have to be elements of that um, and I don't think either of us would say it's easy to have ambition and to fit that in with motherhood um, and I think I think what we've probably discovered a bit is that no one's finding it easy it is really difficult, but you've got to be quite intentional about it.
Speaker 2:You've got to prioritize, if ambition and being successful in your career and again, for us it's not just about career necessarily, it's achieving whatever your ambitions are still having that time for yourself, um, I think. But being able to achieve those ambitions, you have to pick what matters to you and that's probably part of the story that's maybe not shared that much about motherhood, that you. There's that myth of having it all isn't there. That gets bandied around a lot and we talked to somebody really early on. She was one of the first people we interviewed. She's called Maxine Nwari and she said you can have it all, but you've got to pick your all. And that's kind of stayed with me. You can't have everything that's out there, but you can choose the things that matter to you. You know, make them count.
Speaker 3:Sorry, go ahead, go on, go on. No, you carry on, tiffany. Okay, yeah, I was just gonna say about um. Yeah, this is the idea of having it all like, because I remember, because when I had because, firstly, I struggled with my identity a bit and I'll put my hands like I didn't really allow myself to have a proper maternity leave just because I'm this super ambitious person who's kind of tied there, sadly I've tried my identity to my career, my career success.
Speaker 3:So when I had a child, I felt I struggled with just taking that time off and just not doing anything. So I started a business during when I was having, you know, when my son was born, and even when I had was having, you know, when my son was born, and even when I, my daughter and I remember when I had my, when my son was little I think that's when I was pregnant my daughter and I remember when, um, in between my meetings for my business, I would be changing from like a dressing gown to like a smart blazer like this. So, just so that, because I'm literally lying down on the floor, um, and I remember I was even trying to go to the gym at that time, trying to stay fit and my I had this conversation my husband about I had to give up the gym because I couldn't go to gym every you know, occasionally and still have enough, even energy, to do the business. So again, the idea that Alex was saying about having it all as well was quite hard for me to just give up the gym just to make my business successful, because I just couldn't do it all.
Speaker 3:So I think every mother has their own versions of that story where, for number one, we spend all our lives building a career, you know, it's all you know, and it's something. You have a child and you're supposed to like stay home with that child and you shouldn't really, because that is an incredible gift. But then we struggle and then you're trying to run a business between having a child and then you're trying to figure out going back to work, and then you still are this professional and everyone is, you know, seen as a mom, and then you're trying to go to an interview and, um, hide, being a mother. I just think it's it's really difficult.
Speaker 3:I kind of feel like it sounds silly.
Speaker 1:It's like moving to a completely different culture maybe, where you don't speak the language, you don't have a guidebook, you don't know anyone there and you just like plonk down and expect to get on with it. And it's that like sense of this is not familiar to me at all. I kind of feel like, yeah, it's sort of landing in a weird way on a different planet and then you're having to figure it out. But we're all figuring it out and maybe this I think is the beauty of your podcast, is actually you everyone, you land on the different plan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you land on the different planet. And at least you've got you know your lovely, you know voice and in your ears, actually with this, you know a friendly voice. I think that's helping you know, you navigate this new sense of who you are, and so that's it.
Speaker 2:It is a, it is a new sense of who you are completely. It completely changes your priorities in life. Um, I mean, tiffany, we had met before we you know we're doing all baby classes and stuff but you must have been thinking, when I turned up, like this woman has she brushed her hair in like the last few weeks? Because I was like if I, if my house wasn't a complete disaster zone. When Eddie came down at lunchtime from because he was working from home during the pandemic, yeah, I felt really pleased with myself, but I wasn't dressed or showered normally by sort of noon, having had a baby. Um, I found it you seem to spend all day doing stuff but feel like you didn't get anything done. Um, you don't know if somebody asked you, what did you do?
Speaker 2:you couldn't tell them what what you achieved that day and I'm somebody who's driven by like lists and taking stuff off, getting things done, so I found that really hard and also just that I was like I haven't even showered today. I don't like the house is a disaster, the dishwasher's like hasn't been loaded and now there's loads of other dirty things lying around. I found that really tough and I definitely found like salvation in kind of community of going to those baby groups. That, fortunately for a short period of time, because we both had a baby in the proper lockdown. Um, fortunately, over the summer it kind of opened up again and, um, I think where the podcast came from is that we.
Speaker 1:It's the podcast we would have liked to have listened to if that makes sense so you say that obviously I think you've sort of said your own definitions of success has changed since having children. What does that definition you know what is success look like now for you that maybe it didn't look like in the past? I think?
Speaker 3:I think, for me, success has been intentional and doing in my way, because I, you know, I said about this, about, like social media and the idea that we're constantly exposed to other people's version of success, and I think, as human beings, we want to achieve something that's authentic to us. So I think, for me, success is defining what matters to me in irrespective of what other people think, irrespective of what my parents expect from me. It's kind of just sitting down with my own kind of voice, um, and figuring out, you know, with the limited time that I have, what do I want to achieve in this world? And they're taking small steps every single day to become that person, um, and it doesn't have to be this incredible glory, I don't have to be applauded for it, because it's just a sense of, you know, being intentional. I think that's very important for me.
Speaker 3:So, do I want to do a podcast? I wouldn't be doing my ambition if I didn't really really want to do it, because there are times when we've had to do that in our dressing gown, but it matters. That's why we did it. You know, the work I do is, you know, going back into recruitment. I love recruitment and it's I mean for today. The kids are not well. I've had to take an hour there and there to work quickly. When they go to bed I stay up for an additional two hours working because I love it, because I find that this is something I really want to do. So in everything I do for me personally, it's just been intentional and thinking about what's important.
Speaker 1:I love that. What about?
Speaker 2:you, alex, I agree. So I think it's, for me, success is being able to do something that I feel passionate about. I think one of the things that does change when you become a mother is that time spent away from your kids, when you can feel mum guilt and all of that kind of thing. You want to do something that actually matters to you. So I think things that you maybe once would have said yes to you might say no because they no longer kind of meet your you know chime with your values. I guess and that is one of the reasons we started doing Mambition, because it's something we're both passionate about I knew that when we were sort of thinking of the ideas, I was like, oh, tiffany would be fantastic on a podcast and I wouldn't want to do this with anyone else, and I think our energy works really well together and it's something that we really enjoy and find fun.
Speaker 2:And then in terms of career so I've worked in higher education for the past sort of 15 years and, um, I've it's, I've had to put in a lot of boundaries in place in the workplace purely because I did. I um have a role that involved a lot of travel before I had Ted, and that is something that, while I used to love the travel and it was the biggest part of my job for me, you know, I got to travel to all sorts of places, sometimes totally by myself, like go to Russia, go to China alone um, at the minute I don't want to do that, so it's working away through my career that allows me to maintain what I'm doing and leaves the door open to that travel in the future when he's a bit older. Um, so it's about making choices, and making choices that you're happy with the payoff, I guess, but definitely about doing something you've got passion for.
Speaker 1:Otherwise, that's the point and what have you learned from your guest? Things talk to us through some of the guests you've had on and some things maybe you've learned by doing these podcasts and interviewing these different people. Maybe some preconceptions you had before you hit record and some things that really opened your eyes I thought people were going to tell us how to do it, did you, tiffany?
Speaker 2:I thought they were going to kind of give us the secret guide to being able to kind of juggle motherhood and ambition. And there are ways of making it easier, but there's no one quick fix or way to do it, and that for me I think as well. The workplace isn't really set up that brilliantly for working mothers, yeah, um. So I think that that has kind of come out more and more in the conversation, that every single person, even if they're trying to follow their ambitions, they find it hard yeah, I think um, oh, we've had so many lessons.
Speaker 3:I oh, it's been just free mentoring and therapy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I get that yes.
Speaker 3:Shout out to the guests. I mean we had, for example, we had Linda Scott and she's the high commissioner for the Namibia and the UK and she was just like this powerhouse woman. But she came on and she said, look, being a mom is the number one thing for me and I was like what do you mean you, you know, like I thought you would say your career was. And then we had, um, a lady called Dina Priest. She's really cool and she talks about how, for people, for mothers and for working parents, it's all about finding your passion and translating that to profit. So that was interesting, though she was saying how she got burnt out at work and she you, you know high powered career and then realized that our kids were watching her burning out and she was just, you know, like her energy and everything was a bit off and them watching that and then translating that into what careers mean for people was too painful for her, so she had to change things around and now she's passionate about helping people find that.
Speaker 3:And then we had Maxine Nwaneri that Alex mentioned, and Maxine's amazing because she's written a book and she was at the point of death when she was having a baby and then that made her realize it was mortal life and I wasn't going to let this episode just go and just disappear. I'm going to change it into a transitional moment. I'm going to write a book and live fully and become a coach, and then we had you come on as well. I mean, I actually want to interview you now on this, because you were saying how you had a um, you let go at work by redundancy. Yeah, yeah, that could have broken. You could have decided you know what, forget this. I'm gonna just I don't know, but then you built a investing in women out of that. So let's talk to you as well. I mean, what was it for you that made you like that um experience, like make you and not break you?
Speaker 1:it was felt a little bit like you, tiffany, you know you said you like work after your kids have gone to bed. I do as well, trying to do a little bit less now, but I do enjoy work and I've loved having that sense of pride that I've created something and it's mine and there is. I do have an identity outside of being a mom, even though I love being a mom. I felt really trapped in the pandemic and ended up actually being quite resentful of my husband that he had a job, you know, and he was talking to adults and I was just with the kid.
Speaker 1:I think the pandemic was so tricky for um, a lot of you know parents, particularly mums, that ended up taking on the run of the child care, and I think I just, you know, I just wanted to spread my wings and do something that was for me and I'm really pleased I did, and actually it's like taking those risks and now I've done it.
Speaker 1:It's not been easy at all at all, but I'm really pleased that I can turn around and tell my kids, you know, when they're a bit older, I do think anything is possible and I really don't think motherhood has to mark at the end of your career. You know, and I think that's something that's sort of fed to us on social media and it's difficult. I know you've said that and you know, I agree, there is a lot of barriers, it makes it hard, but it definitely does not need to be the end of a career and you can always achieve brilliant things post kids. But I'm interested to know you know you said about the, the secret. I know no one has the secret, but there was some tips you picked up. What was some of the tips you could maybe share with our listeners about how, I guess, manage career and motherhood?
Speaker 2:I think it's definitely around sort of the making the choices and priorities and really doing some of their kind of self-reflection, um, that you need to to do that because I think people often either return to work and just kind of jump back into where they, where they left off, without giving, and I think part of that part of the not giving it masses of thought then is because you're going through such a really big period of transition. You've got so much going on. You focused on the baby, then you focused on settling back into work, but we spoke to somebody called Dr Anne Welsh who was really interesting, and she talked about the potential for transformation and change at a moment of giving birth. That actually changes the way your brain works, um, so that was really interesting. It's not even just for women, it's anyone who becomes a parent, um, so that there's opportunity there to kind of look at yourself and do a bit of reflection to see whether what you were doing before you were a parent still matters to you and whether that's what you still want to keep doing. And that self-reflection is really kind of crucial to going back.
Speaker 2:I?
Speaker 2:um went back to work after 18 months because my son was ill and then, going back after 18 months of being off work, I had a new team to manage.
Speaker 2:The director of the service I work in had changed, the strategic direction of the university had changed, a lot of the university executive had changed as well, and I came back into work and people expected me to know what I was doing in a job that was basically a new job that I had notionally previously done, and so there was a lot of my transition where I can definitely see the benefit for people having a kind of return to work career coach as well, to kind of help them settle back in and make some of those choices, some of those choices.
Speaker 2:For me, I think I was just running to keep still to kind of settle back into, settle back into what was essentially a new role, um, and I think people don't tell you that that transition might be really difficult, um, and that you might find that really hard, and they also don't tell you how often your child will be sick particularly sick today, aren't they? But, um, they don't tell you how often your kids will be sick and how often you'll have to be out of the workplace. So I think that for me is a big one of like the managed transition and making sure you're intentional about the transition.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. It is difficult, isn't it? When you return to work, I think you look at all the people in your office and everyone seems to have it together. And yeah, I office and everyone seems to have it together and, yeah, I found it tough.
Speaker 3:What about you, tiffany, returning back to work? Oh, um, I think number one is community. Oh um, you know, I LinkedIn before I kind of came back to LinkedIn with my new identity of being a mom. I think you kind of hide that because you think my past LinkedIn circle was like professional management, consulting types of people, because I used to recruit in that space. So, um, coming back to LinkedIn with that identity kind of felt like I was just needed to hide.
Speaker 3:Yeah, as we build my ambition, as we connect with more mothers and seeing, every day I go on LinkedIn, I see people talking about the juggle. I see, like you know, for number one, I mean, you know people like yasmin, um samson dalrosha she's really good to follow because she talks a lot about that quite openly. Um, tanya edgar as well she's like a, she's a coach and she also talks about motherhood. Dina priest talks about motherhood. Um, we even had, um, what was the name? Um amber amber shaker she was a partner at a consultancy called gate one and again, that's another successful woman who's talking about motherhood. So I think one thing I would definitely advise other women to try to build more like on your linkedin so that you're not going on oh it's just me. Because when you realize that it's not that unique to you, I think it sort of makes you take a deep breath and go oh it's all right like everybody's juggling everyone is taking a day off, everyone is trying to email whilst they've got their babies on their you know, on their chest.
Speaker 3:I think normalizing that sort of content makes you feel like you're not running behind and that it's normal, and that and through that it allows you to also sort of give yourself some time to figure it out and to understand that it's okay and this is how we should be um, I think everyone's got their game face on, haven't they of like pretending they haven't changed?
Speaker 3:and I think it's hard. I think it's because you know this is um, trying to be professional and be a parent. It's really hard if you don't have a, a job that's particularly flexible. Um, and I think number two I would say is actually for women to build more confidence, because I find that when you're more confident, you can maybe take risks and maybe you might need to leave your job, you might need to go and start a business, you might need to go and try something else for a while, because not everyone finds a flexible job. You know, not everyone. So I think I mean I came across an article that I actually shared today on my LinkedIn in the stylist magazine where I said one out of 10 people in the UK have a high level of confidence, that's nine out of 10 people that are struggling the confidence. It's a confidence crisis.
Speaker 3:So I think my advice to any mother like start to work on your confidence, because your confidence takes a hit when you become a mom. You know your body changes your kind of new identity. So I think anything small that can help you build it up do it go outside. I mean for me, from day one I was going on walks every like every other day, I was outside, I was going to the park with the children. Um, I even bought like a resistance. I was going on walks every like every other day.
Speaker 3:I was outside, I was going to the park with the children. I even bought like a resistance band. I was doing little bits of exercise at the park. I mean, I looked a little bit crazy but I was, you know, just watching on myself. You know, join baby groups, talk to other mothers, maybe read a book, maybe join a network. You know, I think when you it's just the more you build your confidence, the more you can then transition into motherhood and maybe take a risk, maybe change something, because you might just need it, your career might need it, as I'm sure you found that transition to motherhood meant you have to, you know, start a business. I mean, yeah, I'd love to know what you think about, like what helped you during that phase as well.
Speaker 1:Actually, liz, I think, like actually, like you said, like reading books, listening to podcasts, following the people that inspired me on social media that weren't all perfect and actually were sort of keeping it quite real and, yeah, I think realizing that you're not alone is so important. What about employers speaking to um, to moms as you do? What can employers do to help um their employees maybe transition back to work after um, potentially even maintain?
Speaker 2:or accelerate careers post kids I think managing that return to the workplace is really critical and I don't think it's done well in a lot of places. I think that it starts really before the employee goes off on maternity leave. So working with them about what keeping in touch days will look like things like that. But flexibility, because we all know, you know, that the first day that I so my son did two weeks of settling in at nursery, going there every day and doing a little bit of time, and then the first day that we actually paid him to go, he was sick because he'd caught all the bugs at nursery. And I feel like maybe it's not as bad as this, but I feel like he was off once a week for the first six months and you need an employer that understands that that's the case.
Speaker 2:And um, an old manager of mine returned to work 10 years before I had my son and I remember thinking he cannot be ill again. This, what's the matter with this kid? How can he possibly be sick again? And then, 10 years later, I was like, oh my god, I'm so sorry, I can't believe. I even thought that, yeah, but I think that a good employer would manage that with some of the other staff around that person, that they would set expectations for other people of what it looks like for a woman to return to work. Yeah, but I think a lot of employers are completely clueless about it.
Speaker 2:I think that paying for some of that return to work coaching that there was there are a lot of people out there offering that sort of thing now and I think that employers should sort of upskill themselves on what it looks like to have mothers or fathers. You know, a lot more fathers are needing that kind of flexible time as well. In that kind of flexible time as well, what it's like to have parents and carers in the workplace and really understand how they support them, rather than doing it as a box ticking exercise, because I think I think it is normally done as box ticking just so that they can say they know a little bit about somebody's return to work. But quite often I think a return to work looks like somebody coming back to the office and them saying, oh, maybe sending an email that says so-and-so's back, a few meetings with people, but they're not really given much in the way of proper. They almost need like an induction in the same way that somebody's starting should have.
Speaker 1:I agree, I remember it was like you. I read different office, different team. It felt like a completely different job. And then it's like yeah, so it says, you know, liz is back now. And then people are asking questions like I'm like I couldn't even remember my password.
Speaker 2:I think I try to put my bank pin into the photocopier to like print my, print my dog.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, yeah, it's so like I don't know what it is. Yeah, I think it would help to sort of treat you in a way like a bit of a new starter. Um, what about you, tiffany? Any advice for employers about managing that transition back?
Speaker 3:they should make their jobs flexible and give it to investing in women right. I love that thank you.
Speaker 2:Oh, you get the teacher award um, yeah, I mean it's.
Speaker 3:It's a big job, isn't it?
Speaker 3:I think, um, I'm just glad that there's more conversations going into this, but, um, I would say mentoring.
Speaker 3:I think mentoring is mentoring allyship, um, you know, within companies, if they should have mentors that can mentor women and coming back to, can mentor women coming back to work, or parents coming back to work, or at least make a sort of environment where people can ask other people.
Speaker 3:So, mentoring leadership there was something about and even like programs. I think I was reading about how this, even with I don't know if you saw the McKinsey workplace report that comes out every 10 years and you know, even with the progress we've made, there's still lots of women, but kind of like in the leadership in the CEO suite, not as many women in there. So I think a lot of companies need to appreciate that maybe women are different than men and start to have programs to support more women to be visible in the workplace and be successful, have programs to support more women to be visible in the workplace and be successful. So, um, programs about women, um developing leadership skills, leadership traits, can they have sort of training, some corsets in the company? I recognize that leaders don't need to be out there.
Speaker 1:Some you know I mean, yeah, there's not one type of leader.
Speaker 3:There shouldn't be one type of leader and like um you know, for example, like if you have programs that recognize that women are different and they may need different support, then you'll be able to catch the incredible women before they give up and lean out right. So if we're having programs that recognizes that more in the workplace, that leadership is not always aggressive. It's not this obvious aggression, it can be this subtle, just very good at what you do and you don't need to tell everyone about it.
Speaker 2:Because I struggle with that in the workplace where you're very good at what you do but because you're not telling everyone, you're not out there like typical or even some coaching for people in how they manage that visibility and do that because, you know, both Tiffany and I are quite confident outgoing people but not like not everybody wants to be the loudest voice in the room and they shouldn't have to be in order to to lead and to kind of step into those roles. And we talked to lauren curry sorry, alex, let me finish that.
Speaker 3:Sorry, oh sorry, sorry it's okay, just just my train of thought, I don't want to lose it, um. So it's this idea, that, um, I think the the recognition, that leadership. It doesn't have to be this typical kind of macho energy. It can be this kind of softer but very good at what you do, capability, and I think if companies have more programs around that, then you'll catch, like I was saying, the woman that would lean out before motherhood, before they go.
Speaker 3:And also there was another research that I thought was interesting. It's a company called Textio. They did a research on how women receive feedback in the workplace, how women were more given feedback based on their personality rather than their capacity and their abilities at work. So women were given 76% compared to 12% of men. So when women receive feedback, it's about their personality. Now they come across oh, maybe you're a bit too aggressive or you're a bit too that, and I think that's again another thing that pushes women out of the workplace. So if more companies can recognize that they need to train their managers on giving feedback properly based on people's competence, then we wouldn't have that sort of impact where women are leaving or women are just leaning out. So I just think it's these things companies can do internally to train leaders, train people giving the feedback, train the managers and then you know, overall it will, the small things will stack together absolutely so, alex.
Speaker 1:You said you met Lauren Currie.
Speaker 2:I know Lauren, she's really good, yeah, so we were talking to Lauren Currie and it's very much along the podcast yeah for the podcast and it's very much along the lines of what Tiffany's saying there about the kind of the confidence and the visibility that women need to have in the workplace.
Speaker 2:Um, that, um, you know that it's not all about the loud confidence, it's about some of the quiet, the quiet confidence that people can have and sort of coaching women to be visible in the workplace, because often, even though it should work, doesn't speak for itself and they need to kind of assert themselves in the workplace. And what Tiffany just said there about the kind of personal feedback that women often get. And again, another one of our guests, so Shakir, she was talking about that how she would, she advocates in the workplace for other women. So she would say you do, you do well, but what about how she does her job? Rather than about the kind of the personality aspects of things that really do get picked up on a lot more for women and that, even if they're displaying traits that men would display and be called confident or good leaders yeah, yeah that that it can often.
Speaker 2:What did lauren say, tiffany? Was it that um 90 of people have a bias against women? And that's all people?
Speaker 1:that's women as well as yeah um, and usually it's an unconscious um bias against women, but that 90 percent of people hold some unconscious ideas about women not being as good leaders culturally like watching t, growing up, watching tv programs and thinking you know a lot of tv we love all growing up with, especially, you know, the 80s and 90s all have had women as like homemakers and that's, you know, sacrificial role. If maybe that has fed into this unconscious bias that that is how we see, you know, I'm just even he's like. You know, when you look I'm like watching like fresh prince of bel-air and you know the mum was there and we're in the background providing the home sort of thing, rather than yeah, there's a book.
Speaker 3:There's a book that I, um the tiger came to tea and actually, yes, it's one of our favorite books, but it's about sophie's mummy's in the house when a tiger came and her dad came back from work in his briefcase, you know, and it's like why, you know we read that book all the time, but yeah, such a strong message that mummy's in the house I know I know, yeah, and she goes out and say daddy what would you like for dinner?
Speaker 1:and then, daddy makes this wonderful suggestion. Yeah, the sausages at the cafe yeah, I do that because I like, I like it. I kind of get a hundred percent. What?
Speaker 3:you mean a bit too much, but yeah, yeah, and we all said the similar books as well.
Speaker 1:Is that the large family? Do you read about the like? The piece of cake the elephants. The other elephants and then it's the mums are home, the daddy's going out to work. Oh, and even though they're elephants. They're elephants, yeah that gender bias yeah, it creeps in so early, doesn't it?
Speaker 3:and obviously that's feeding in young bro, it's sadly, yeah, sadly, it's there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I met I met some friends over the weekend, um, at my husband's birthday, and they were saying so they've got toddlers who are just sort of the same age, about six months older than our little boys, but that they're already starting to say oh no, that that's a boy's thing, that's a girl's thing, and they're only sort of just over four oh no, sebastian's trying to say that oh really, and I don't know where it comes from.
Speaker 3:Funny enough, yeah, I've been noticing. I've never said anything like he said. Oh no, mommy, um, pinks for girls, blues for boys, I like dark blue. Yeah, he's starting to say that I haven't quite, you know, because I've never like made any, you know, sort of generalizations like that.
Speaker 1:So I don't know, maybe it's typical, isn't it? I remember my little girl last year she's seven and when she was six I said, oh, you know who's the cleverest in your class? But it's you. And she said no, no, no, it's this boy. And then said, oh, okay, who's the second? And then she listed five boys that were the cleverest and I was like where are all the girls? And then she goes. She, literally the girl came. The first girl came in sixth. I was like where are all the girls? And then she goes, the first girl came in 6th. And I was like that is I know categorically that will probably not be true.
Speaker 3:I wonder where that's come from but it shows it might be the ones who speak out the most. Might be her kind of gauge of what clever is yeah, but there you go.
Speaker 2:It's a shame that's even coming from, like obviously, us that are probably quite on it and they're like trying to like yeah, but yeah definitely it's so powerful, then the work you're doing and we had another really, really interesting conversation that was around, um, women in finances and investing and the money gap, and that was something we hadn't thought loads about and it wasn't a kind of typical episode, I guess, although the person who we had come on, anouk Nufman she is a mum.
Speaker 2:That was really interesting from a kind of gender perspective that women are much more likely to save, even though there's the gender penalty about money in the workplace.
Speaker 2:And it was really interesting to talk to her because of the way it made me think about my own finances and I wish I'd thought about it before I'd gone on maternity leave and I think that that's something that I would advise mothers to do, because I remember getting back and there being that thing, whatever it is, whether you've got taxed or national insurance or something to make up because you've got a gap for being off for maternity. Oh yeah, um, and I wish that I'd kind of I wish I'd spoken to her before I went on maternity and got that kind of in my head a bit younger, um, but I think it's really important for women to have that kind of financial stability and equality at a younger age and maybe before they've thought about children, because then it gives them that freedom, once they are mothers, to do what Tiffany was saying before, of make a change, if you need to make a change in your life, what does she say?
Speaker 1:Does she say women or men are more likely to make investments?
Speaker 2:same, women or men, are more likely to make investments. Women are better at it, like they are, um, they'll, they'll put their money in and then they will do it consistently and they won't move it around. So they, they're like the perfect investor really, um, but women are much more likely to save where they're going to have a pension gap and a wage gap and things like that, saving like a low interest, just in, just like a normal savings account rather than an investment account yeah.
Speaker 3:So women are like more, I suppose, more risk averse when, yeah, likely to be like upfront, it'll take the risk. More women, more careful, so they're thinking more saved, a traditional way of uh but yeah, yeah so she was just talking about this idea of um.
Speaker 3:You know just how that plays into motherhood again and how, um for her, she went from um being an employee to an employer and recognizing that obviously she didn't have the perks and you know the things that the security you get with the job, and then then thinking about how that would impact a daughter, um, and just how women need to be aware of that, and I think also it and it definitely makes sense because you know women are more likely to take that caregiving um kind of route, aren't they really? So sometimes you may need to again leave the workplace or take more of a flexible job which will have less money tied to it. So there's just so much, so many things that impact us and I think, um, my ambition has definitely exposed us to more of that, um, and just thinking about how, as women, we can then maybe help ourselves right, because yeah, knowledge is, power isn't it absolutely.
Speaker 3:It might take a while for the system to change. It might take a while for flexible work to become the norm. So, in the meantime, what can we do? Because I don't know. I've always fought this sense of agency, but, like I don't know, I've always waited for someone to come and save me. But I'm still waiting.
Speaker 2:I think you hit the nail on the head for me, tiffany, once when you said we can't solve the, the motherhood penalty or the wage gap. But we can give people advice on how to like and not really advice. We can show them how they could change things for themselves by yeah, so individually yeah, definitely, yeah, there's.
Speaker 3:There's a lot around like, um, I don't know, like, until the system changes, can we have more conversations like this? Um, can we, you know, look at our finances? Can we build our confidence so that maybe we can start businesses? Maybe, you know? I mean, alex, I'll come back to what you said. I know we're doing ping pong here, but you wrote about how we should all be millionaires, tara.
Speaker 3:So it's this idea that, you know, can women think, you know, can we build our confidence so that we can take more risks, so that we can put our mouth where our skills are Right? Can we step up a bit? And, you know, whilst no one's coming to save us, can we start a business? If it doesn't work out, can we start another one? Can we all rally together? Can we support each other? Can we talk more about this issue so that more companies can, um, you know, can make more changes and recognize there is an issue here, um, can we, you know, support each other? Can we? It's just so many, but it's like stacks, isn't it? It's building a brick. So, hopefully, my ambition is one, just one piece of that, and hopefully, it's definitely more than one piece.
Speaker 1:It sounds like a treasure trove, you know, of insights and information for any woman I mean it sounds a lot, you know for any woman, no matter what stage of motherhood you're in, um. So where can people find you both and where can people listen to the podcast?
Speaker 3:we're everywhere. At this point we're going global baby, we're mainly on, we're on spotify, we're in apple, we're on um amazon music as well, and we're starting to build the youtube channel a bit, but it's early days um you'll be able to see us in our dressing gowns, behind the scenes.
Speaker 2:You know what? I'm gonna be honest now look what I've got on me I haven't, but I'm essentially wearing a coat exposing ourselves.
Speaker 1:There aren't we, yes, brilliant, so you can listen to it. Spotify apple podcast, amazon music. And are you on linkedin you happy for people contact to contact?
Speaker 3:you? Oh yeah, we're both on linkedin, yeah primarily active?
Speaker 2:there aren't we yeah, oh, brilliant.
Speaker 1:Well, we'll put all the links in the show. It sounds like there's been such powerful episodes and interviews you've had, so definitely worth um our listeners having a listen and remind us, because you told me about this book last time we spoke. What's the book that you think is um a must read, alex? Oh, about the millionaires. About the millionaires?
Speaker 2:oh okay, yeah, it's called we should all be millionaires, and the author is rachel robson.
Speaker 1:Brilliant, okay, and I know you mentioned a few times, so this is probably a life-changing book. I'm gonna go now literally off this call. Download it onto my kindle.
Speaker 2:So yes, you'll be really inspired after reading it.
Speaker 1:Oh good, I think we all need a bit of that. Thank you so much, ladies, for joining me today. It's been a real pleasure to chat with you.
Speaker 1:Thank you everyone thanks bye thank you for listening to another episode of the work. It like a mum podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe, and don't forget to share the link with a friend. If you're on linkedin, please send me a connection request at elizabeth willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode. You can also follow my recruitment site Investing in Women on LinkedIn, facebook and Instagram. Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.