Work It Like A Mum
Work It Like A Mum
Grief, Growth, and Finding Purpose: A Funeral Celebrant's Story
This week, I’m joined by one of my oldest and dearest friends — the incredibly grounded and wise Nikki Lodge-Frear. A former teacher, Nikki has built a beautiful, purpose-led business as a funeral celebrant.
This conversation is tender, honest, and surprisingly uplifting — an exploration of what it means to hold space for people at their most vulnerable, and how grief can quietly teach us about presence, humanity, and even joy.
💬 What We Cover:
- Nikki’s journey from the classroom to the crematorium — and why it felt like coming home
- The unique joy and depth she’s discovered through celebrancy work
- How to hold space for others without losing yourself
- Grief as a universal human experience, not something to be “fixed”
- Why traditional business rules don’t always apply — and what it looks like to grow slowly, intentionally, and sustainably
- What balance really means as a parent doing meaningful work
🔑 Key Takeaways:
🌱 It’s never too late to pivot — Your career path doesn’t need to be linear to be meaningful.
🖤 Grief is part of life — Learning how to support others through loss is a vital skill we all need.
🧠 Experience over qualifications — Nikki’s success came from mentorship, empathy, and lived experience.
🗣 Celebrancy is a people-first profession — It’s about listening, storytelling, and creating space for healing.
✨ You don’t need to follow the “normal” route — Nikki’s story proves that non-traditional paths can lead to incredibly fulfilling work.
👩👧👦 Balance is a priority — Choosing work that fits your life and values is key, especially as a parent.
A nourishing episode for anyone curious about working with heart, navigating change, or showing up for others with real presence.
Show Links:
Connect with our host, Elizabeth Willetts here
Connect with Nikki on Facebook
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Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life. I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women job board and community. In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business. They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, set boundaries and balance, the challenges they've faced and how they've overcome them to define their own versions of success. Shy away from the real talk? No way. Money struggles, growth, loss, boundaries and balance we cover it all. Think of this as coffee with your mates, mixed with an inspiring TED Talk sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school. So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, make sure you're cosy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams, or just survive Mondays. This is the Work it Like A Mum podcast. This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women. Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers. Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you. They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries. Ready to find your perfect job? Search their website at industries. Ready to find your perfect job? Search their website at investinginwomencouk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity. Now back to the show.
Speaker 1:Hello, welcome to this week's episode of the Work it Like A Mom podcast. Today I am really excited because I'm actually speaking to my oldest oldest, one of my best friends, nikki Lodge-Fria, who is a funeral celebrant, and Nikki is going to be coming on today to talk about her work, how she pivoted from her career as a teacher to becoming a funeral celebrant. But we're also going to be talking a little bit about grief today as well, because you know it's something that touches us all, and Nikki is going to be offering advice about how you can support somebody going through grief, how you can manage your own grief as well if a loved one is dying. So there's going to be lots to unpack in this week's episode, but I thought it was really important that we we talked about it because, like I said, it's something that we all experience, unfortunately, at some point in our lives. So so, thank you for coming on, thank you for having me. This is very exciting, I am very excited. So how come did you always want to be a funeral celebrant?
Speaker 2:no, I don't think that was on my list of careers, uh, at high school, um, my undergraduate degree was journalism and English and then, shortly after that, I went down the teaching route. So I worked for a couple years as a teaching assistant, did my PGCE, spent 10 years, pretty much, in teaching. When I first exited teaching at the end of 2016, I then set up a preschool gymnastics business. Around that time I had actually thought about the funeral celebrancy, um, sort of a year before leaving teaching, actually when I had my second child, wasn't really the right time. It wouldn't have been.
Speaker 2:So I sort of parked that, went into another business and ran that successfully until Covid, um, and it was then, as we were coming out of COVID and I was juggling a part-time job whilst the business was shut, that I started to think about perhaps it's time to switch again, and somehow I just figured it was something that I would like to explore. I think something was drawing me to it perhaps personal experience of certain things, and once I'd kind of thought about it, I couldn't really shift it from my mind. Um, and then the practical side of it seemed to fit as well, with changing from something that had given me a good work-life balance coming out of teaching to something that might all also fit around my family yeah so it's not certainly not something I figured I'd be doing when I was at university.
Speaker 2:I don't. I don't think it's something that you can go into without life experience.
Speaker 1:Uh, but I think I've sort of found my place for now do you know what's interesting, when I I used to do years ago did a bit of beauty therapy and I used to have a few funeral directors that were clients, and they honestly loved their jobs.
Speaker 2:I've never known anybody so passionate about the jobs as the couple of funeral directors I met yeah, I think it's something like about maybe supporting some people at that point in life yeah, it's obviously very fulfilling and I think people from the outside looking in think that it must be a career that's full of sadness and grief, and how on earth can you live a happy life doing something like that? But actually it feels like the opposite. You know, the people that I know within this industry now are some of the funniest people and you know happy with their life, and I think it gives you that reflection on life as well, to kind of try and be as happy as you can and live your life. Yeah, so it's. I think it's quite different from what people's sort of expectation would be yeah.
Speaker 1:So why did you want to leave teaching? Because I know there'll be a few people teachers listening to this yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think for me it was a build-up over a number of years, probably looking back over most of my career, which sounds quite sad really, um, but it was a build-up of the stress within teaching and things sort of specific to education and schools. Also, I had two young children during my time that I was teaching, had a third child then when I was doing the gymnastics, and for me, even though I gradually reduced my working days down to four and then down to three, it still felt unmanageable. I was just, even on my days off, consumed by work, didn't feel like I was present, and so it just felt unsustainable with a young family, and I think it was just more and more I was becoming sort of I just didn't agree with the things I was being asked to do as a teacher. I was sort of quite passionate about early years and delivering that in particular ways, and it felt as though it was just moving further and further away from my ideal and in the end it ended up being a sort of either a perfect storm or, I suppose, the perfect scenario to leave, in that I'd moved schools in the September because we thought we were moving house and I ended up in this school, about an hour away from where we lived and literally days before I started.
Speaker 2:We then found out we didn't need to move All of a sudden. We had this job, no need to be there. I didn't really want to carry on teaching at that point. I'd only done it to get the mortgage. Days before I started, I found out that my auntie had cancer for the first time, so that knocked me off my feet. I started the school, thought it was my perfect school, and it wasn't. It was kind of everything that I really hated at that point, and so within a month I was done, and what also happened within those few weeks was that I'd stumbled across this opportunity to set up the gymnastics business.
Speaker 2:Whether I would have left if I didn't have something to go to, I don't know but, I, think because I had this opportunity, a glimmer of hope, all of a sudden, you know, I don't know. Yeah, I used to think I was the kind of person that wouldn't have done something so rash, but one day I was actually at an appointment for my my own cancer that I'd had some years ago. I was at that appointment and I never went back to the classroom. I got to that appointment, I broke down, went to my auntie and uncle's house. That day rang the school and I never went back. So it all felt as though it happened quite quickly, but it was a build-up over many, many years disillusionment and just not being practical for a working mum either.
Speaker 1:Yeah is my mic sounding a bit funny. It sounds okay to me, all right, okay? Oh no, it's gonna find that's fine. I'll just edit that bit out. Um, it was when I was like I could, it was like echoing back. It was my mic, not yours right um, I wonder, though, if you were like a bit of a natural entrepreneur, a bit like me, because obviously I've got such strong memories of me and you with our little stalls at the end of the drives yeah we used to do a lot for charity, didn't we?
Speaker 2:but I think it was.
Speaker 1:I, just because we liked running a little shop, so we'd have little sweet shops. Wouldn't we at the end of the drive, yeah, and sell, basically harass our neighbors into my? Or we'd go around to our neighbor's house, wouldn't we, and offer to sweep their drive, yeah cutting dandelions yeah, we would give it all to charity. But I wonder if you had that itch of wanting to work for yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe, I've never really thought about that, but yeah, maybe we can trace it back to that sort of Like that, just yeah, being quite entrepreneurial, and obviously I think you, you the preschool business, may have carried on if it hadn't been for Covid that yeah it.
Speaker 2:It felt as though it forced my hand. I I had my third child whilst I was running that business and and I was working part-time through choice, and I always thought when she goes to school I'll probably have no excuse to not either upscale or expand or work more. So that was one option, or do something else. And then Covid came along, sort of a year or so before she was due to go to school. So it sort of forced my hand and I think if it hadn't, I probably would have continued for some time because it was doing well and I enjoyed it and I had a great work-life balance. So it was sort of one of those I don't know, sliding doors moments or tipping points, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what does a funeral celebrant do then? What's a typical week look like?
Speaker 2:Well, every week is different, although it's usually a combination of funeral services or visiting families or being at home and doing the prep work for that.
Speaker 2:So a funeral celebrant will deliver the funeral service or help to put that together.
Speaker 2:Um, it's, some people like myself sort of stay mainly on the non-religious side, although if a family would like the lord's prayer I will do that.
Speaker 2:Some celebrants do a little more religious content than others, but on the whole we're sort of viewed as a non-religious option to having a church service or a vicar.
Speaker 2:So we will go and visit the family, get the background, the stories, all the information that family would like to include. We'll find out whether they would like us to deliver it all or whether the family or a friend would like to come up and deliver part of the service. We'll talk about all the different things they might want to include, like poetry or readings, song choices, find out the overall sort of feeling, the tone that a family would like it to have, whether that's more uplifting or if the circumstances mean that it's very sombre, then that's obviously the case sometimes, and then we will go away and write the script or coordinate getting contributions from family members and put it all together make sure that it fits within the timings. If it's in a crematorium, there are very strict timings around the services and we're sort of there just to coordinate everything else. The funeral director obviously has a big hand in that as well, but the actual delivery of the ceremony is over to us once all the logistics have been arranged.
Speaker 1:And then you just arrive what? Five minutes before the service starts. You know what happens on the day you go away? Yeah, how many meetings do you have with the families?
Speaker 2:I will usually have one meeting um. I don't think I've ever met with a family more than once, purely because of my timings. I mean, I'm sure if for a family I offered to go again, they might say yes, and sometimes it's been asked if I will come again, but that would make it much more difficult timings wise. So I'll visit the family, and it usually takes an hour, an hour and a half, sometimes up to two, not usually more than two. That's a lot of information, um. And then the writing might take a few hours. I might do it over a period of days or in one sitting, it just depends um. And then on the day of the service I aim to arrive at the crematorium or the venue if it's it's a cemetery um or another venue about 45 minutes before um. I always get into the building that early, depending if there's other services on, but just to be there in the vehicle sat waiting outside.
Speaker 2:But I do usually go in beforehand and just get organized, put my lippy on yeah um, all of those things, uh, but the timings at the crematoriums are usually quite tight, so the other service might only finish five minutes before your service. So you have to be ready to go in with your drink and your papers, set everything up, and then I'm always there as the cortege arrives. Sometimes the family meet at the crematorium in their own vehicles, but often they'll be in a limo and following behind, so I will greet them then as they arrive, and then we'll just make sure everyone's gathered and they've got everybody there, and then I usually walk up the front of the procession I'm not precious about that, but that's usually the way it goes and then the person who's died in the coffin will be behind, either being carried by the funeral directing staff or family, and then immediate family chief mourners, as we call them, will follow behind and then everybody else into the crematorium wow, did you try?
Speaker 1:who do you have to train to do this? If someone's like listening to this and is, like you know, thinking this, yeah now.
Speaker 2:I did this in a very unorthodox way, I suppose, and so there are training providers out there. It's not the same as teaching, whereby you have to have a qualification to do it, but there are places that will teach you how to do it, and they sort of have their own ways. I was fortunate enough to learn from the gentleman that did our wedding and naming ceremonies for our children, and he's been established since before. This was even a thing. He was one of the original people that just got asked to do a service for a friend, and then it just started from there, and so he used to be a member of the humanist organization, but he no longer is. So he offered to train and mentor me, and during covid so actually all of the training that was happening was online. There would have been nowhere for me to go.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't have been able to get any hands-on experience, but actually working with Stuart meant that I could do that and we managed to get me in and I was able to learn on the job. Obviously, my background in English journalism meant that the writing side of things seemed to come very naturally to me. I didn't feel as though I needed an awful lot of training in that Stuart asked for some like training scripts to be written, sort of, gave me information, asked me to put that together, and I only did a handful of those because he could see that I was able to do that and take what I'd learned from working with him and I got to to meet some of the directors, so I got to sort of establish relationships with with some of those people whilst training. So once he felt I was ready, they sort of were willing to give me a chance and that was how I got going. But that's probably not the normal route.
Speaker 1:You were like his apprentice.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:So that was for me the perfect way to do it and, as I say some of the directors that had seen me, I had the opportunity to deliver some parts of some of the funeral scripts when, um family members had written something but didn't want to read it, so normally Stuart would have read that, but he allowed me to step in so I had some practice, um, and then they were ready to give me a chance once.
Speaker 2:Once he sort of said I was ready, but for most people they would go and do a course, perhaps online or perhaps residential, for a few days. Um, I think the difficulty with this industry is and it is a really, really difficult industry to get going in and make a success of is that there's then not a clear pathway. I could be wrong in this. I haven't experienced it, but from everything I know, once you've sort of finished, it's sort of over to you to then get out there and find work yeah, it sounds a little bit like coaching in that coaching isn't regulated yeah you can train to be a coach, or you cannot train.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you train, or, and then you have to find your own work and make your business work for you yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think the difficulty for a lot of people is that they pay this money to do this course and they get this accreditation, but then there's no guaranteed pathway actually into the work yeah so whilst whilst for me I don't have that official certificate, it may become regulated in the future, and if it does, then I'll have to look at what I need to do.
Speaker 2:But I don't have that certificate. But I I started working from the get-go and it's never stopped. And some people have paid an awful lot of money to train and have never got the work um.
Speaker 1:Could you train through the humanist society? I could have done that yeah if someone's listening to this and they wouldn't they want to train, would that be an obvious place to go?
Speaker 2:that would be one option. The, the humanist organization. I chose not to train with them and to train with Stuart. I chose not to to sort of read well, I wouldn't have been able to register with them unless I trained with them, I believe partly for the opportunity to work with Stuart and also to kind of not be too far into one camp and to have that flexibility. So with the humanist organization you wouldn't really be supposed to do any sort of religious content. So if the family wanted the lord's prayer, that shouldn't really be something they would do. Um, so I felt as though I just wanted a little bit of flexibility so you're a bit of a halfway house, aren't you?
Speaker 1:I know you're not particularly religious yourself, but it's nice you give that option yeah, this is it.
Speaker 2:I think there's a number of different training organisations. There isn't just one, there's a number in different areas and things like that. So, yeah, it's widely available. It's quite popular in some respects, but not necessarily easy to then build a business in.
Speaker 1:How did you build your business? Because you've been going what? Four years now, so a long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so. So, as I say, the directors that I got to know through working alongside Stuart, a couple of them, once Stuart had given me the sort of go ahead to do it, were willing to book me for a funeral. And then, once I'd done one, that was it. You know, it was a very slow build. It wasn't like one day I started and the next I was doing 10 funerals a month. It was a handful, I think, maybe half a dozen in my first month, which is still pretty good for someone new. And you know the couple of directors that that gave me a chance. They continued to work with me and then just gradually, gradually start doing more fuels for those directors who I still work with to this day.
Speaker 2:And then I am the complete opposite of a businesswoman in a, in the sense like the opposite of you, in that I've not done any advertising, I've not done any calling, I've never gone around directors premises knocking on doors, ringing up. Some people do that and obviously you've got to find a way in somehow. But for me I either didn't want to do it that way or I was told that that wasn't the best way to do it, and so I didn't, but I really wanted to do it on reputation and I really wanted to be able to get work by being recommended, whether that's by the funeral directors themselves or the staff in the crematoriums who I've got really good relationships with some of the ones that I go to regularly, like Dewsbury, which is near to me, huddersfield, and those the staff that work there. They see it all and if they say to a funeral director, oh that so-and-so is really good, you should try her like that's probably worth more than putting an advert out, because that's someone that actually knows what they're talking about.
Speaker 2:And then, obviously, families once you've worked for a family once, if they like you, they might ask you next time, unfortunately, that they need somebody or anybody. That is then at that funeral. If they've heard your name or they see it on the service sheet, then they might ask for you, and so that's how it's happened for me and it's just gradually built up and I now work with a handful of directors really regularly and a few more sort of, some of the time as well.
Speaker 1:So, as the children grow up, and you know, yours are now all at school, aren't they? And you know where do you see the visits going? Would you ever want to do weddings, naming ceremonies?
Speaker 2:you're happy to stick to funerals yeah, a lot of people ask me about weddings when I, when I initially thought about this back in 2015 that was my, that was my stance on it that I wanted to really do weddings and naming ceremonies and I thought funerals I wouldn't be able to cope with. And Stuart said to me funerals is sort of the bread and butter of a business if you want to work, you know, day in, day out. And weddings, maybe in the future. I think not for now, not whilst the children are young. Um, perhaps when they grow up I might think about it, but I'm quite happy doing funerals for now how does it fit in like with the kids, because obviously that's been a real driver for you yeah, so when I was thinking about it on a practical level, the crematoriums are generally open between nine and three.
Speaker 2:Some of them are a little bit longer. There's one at Elland, near halifax, near us, I think. They have services up to about four o'clock.
Speaker 1:Most of them finish at quarter past three ish yes, because they want to get them all to the wake, don't they?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean obviously that you know you can make special requests to have later services, but I don't think I've ever done one later than 3 45, so it fits really around school. Most of the time I can take the children to school, most of the time I can pick them up from school. Not a lot of people want the nine o'clock slot, even though it's available, um, so it works really well in that sense. I'm really lucky that my mum sort of helps pick up the pieces. If I've got a late service I'm on a two o'clock or a 2 30 and I just quite can't quite get back, she'll. She'll come and collect them and then I can still take them to all her activities.
Speaker 2:It means that I have to fit my visits around those timings as much as I can. So I will tend to do a morning visit, maybe a lunchtime visit or an early afternoon. I wouldn't plan a visit if I could help it at, say, two o'clock, because that wouldn't give me enough time to then get back. So between three and six that time is handed over to the children and then if I need to do a visit on an evening it would usually be half past six, seven o'clock, so I can have that flexibility other than the ceremonies which are what they are. And it's very difficult. Unless a family really really want it will be at a set time and you have to either say yes or no. But the visits I can control to some degree fit my diary around what else I've got and then my writing. If I need to do that on an evening when they're in bed, then I can. If I've got time during the day then I'll do some then.
Speaker 2:So, it fits quite well. I you know I am busier now than I was when I was doing my gymnastics, um, and I do sometimes find myself working late on a night, and even when I'm running the kids around to their activities, I might be taking a phone call, I might be sending emails, I might have their tea on the go and I need to just send this to the director.
Speaker 1:But it works, I think it works as well as it's going to work, isn't it in modern?
Speaker 2:life yeah.
Speaker 1:And actually I think you know it's funny right when I came back up north we went to Golka Museum, which is a museum in Huddersfield where you can see an old it's like Victorian cottage. Think, isn't it?
Speaker 1:it's like the mill and it was, and you realize how women have always worked and they've always had their kids next to them and it had the looms and stuff and they were saying, you know, the women would have been working on this. The kids would have been going underneath to pick up out the cotton and risking their fingers and I think we do beat ourselves up a lot, don't we, for sending the odd email or whatever, and actually women have always worked, and it's just something we have to do, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, I was. It was the other a few weeks ago. We were in the kitchen and I'd pick the kids up from school. We'd rush home as usual. My kids have something on every day at four o'clock. It's like a home from school, either straight out the door or quick tea. And I took two phone calls back to back from two different funeral directors about whatever, and my middle one made this comment. She was a bit like does that phone ever stop ringing? I was like well, my work does not stop when you finish school, so forgive me for having to work whilst you're eating your tea. I have to pay for all these activities and it was one of those.
Speaker 1:I was a bit like, yeah absolutely, um, and then I wanted to talk. Is there, you know. How do you make sure that you don't take your work home? Is there some, some families and circumstances that really do affect you? How do you not take?
Speaker 2:that home with you it was a big fear before I went into it. Before I went into it as well as talking to Stuart, but actually by the time I got to Stuart and saying I really want to do this, do you remember me? Will you help me? Um, I actually spoke to about four or five other people, including women, about it and, um, and one of my big fears was, you know the sadness that, how, how it would affect my home life, like how can I possibly bring this darkness into my home and my family?
Speaker 1:and it just hasn't been like that and I don't know whether I don't know if I've got used to not do children, though if you know for children, is that still a red line for you, or do you do them now?
Speaker 2:no, I mean, I've actually not. I haven't had the misfortune to do a person under 18, have done a funeral for an 18 year old. I actually had to say no two years ago to doing the funeral for a baby, so I would have been doing it. We were supposed to go on holiday and actually that holiday got cancelled when we found out about my auntie, so that would have been the first. I haven't said no to them, I think it's. You know, they don't happen that often, luckily, I think. Maybe sometimes families in that situation perhaps want the comfort of a religious service. Um, I don't know, they just many haven't come my way as yet, but it's something that I would do now if I was asked, but obviously that would be incredibly difficult. Um, I think the directors know that I've got young children, but I think they know me well enough now that I don't think that would stop them yeah, now you've been going for quite yeah you're a bit more established yeah, yeah, um, and how do you know?
Speaker 1:I've written some notes before we joined and I this might my ignorance, but is there something like five stages of grief? You know, as you're supporting families, what do you see as the typical stages of grief? That?
Speaker 2:people have yeah, there's five and some people argue there's more. But yeah, the ones that sort of are quite well known denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. Um, and obviously we have to be careful that we don't sort of cross that line of trying to become a counselor or sort of becoming too involved. Um, I've tried to kind of keep those boundaries and do what is sort of my role and work with them for that period of time that I'm involved and then to sort of gently step away because I couldn't stay involved with every family that I've worked with. I've done 150 funerals last calendar year. So if I was to try and keep relationships with every family, that would just be overwhelming and it wouldn't be my job. Um, but I think obviously you have to have an awareness of them, as you know, a working level of awareness of what you might encounter, because we see all different things.
Speaker 2:So just last Monday I had two visits one was in the afternoon, one was in the evening, literally a mile away from each other. Um, both people, both ladies in their 40s, had died of cancer at the local hospice. So lots of sort of similarities. And very young one whose birthday is literally three weeks before mine. So you know, I looked at the paperwork and I thought, god, this was the evening visit and I was thinking, oh my goodness, I'm trailing out in freezing temperatures and this is not going to be nice.
Speaker 2:Um, but those two visits were complete opposites. So the first visit, I got there. Um, she's got a big family, but I just met with the husband. Some of the children old children were around at the house, but they weren't really involved in the meeting. It was very somber. It was very difficult to get a lot of information really to put in the service.
Speaker 2:The other visit was the complete opposite. I got there. There must have been about 10 people in the room. It was just full of laughter and so many stories and they were really upbeat. Now, that's how they're choosing to cope, that's how they are. That's seems very much like the character of the person as well. So that was why they wanted to sort of reflect her character. Um, so they might be at different stages in that grief process. Perhaps this you know, the other family, you could argue, maybe they're in denial, but you kind of just have to go with them at that moment in time, um, and it's not your place to try and you know drive them along through that process and everybody, I guess, you know.
Speaker 1:I guess it's like if you are coping with grief in a certain way, then that's not, that's fat, you know?
Speaker 2:I mean, everyone has different, exactly yeah yeah, everybody copes with it differently and, um, you know, I'm of the belief that there there's nothing wrong with laughter humor at any point.
Speaker 2:It doesn't change how you feel, as long as you're not completely shutting it away. Yeah, you can have a laugh. Um, and I said to them and, as I've often said at a number of visits like that, I'll sort of say, well, I feel like I've just been laughing my head off, you know, and I think you can tell if a family is okay to hear that and they certainly were um, and you know they they like to hear that because it makes them feel that, you know, their loved one has made you laugh and the story that they've told you, you know. So I think it can be quite comforting and that's just how they're coping at this point. So, you know, we do sort of see it all equally. I've done visits where we've struggled to even get the next of kin involved. Um, I did a visit before Christmas whereby the husband didn't even want to come to the meeting and his daughters had to sort of drag him along and he was constantly asking to leave and and actually, because he found it too difficult.
Speaker 2:I think he, yeah, he just wasn't coping and and he kept saying he had things to do and he had a schedule to keep, and and actually he Because he found it too difficult. I think, yeah, he just wasn't coping and he kept saying he had things to do and he had a schedule to keep, and actually he didn't even come at the actual service, which was just a couple of weeks ago. He came in at the very beginning, he thanked everybody for coming and then he left and he stayed outside with the funeral director and then he came back in right at the end and I've never seen that before. That that's the first time I've ever had somebody full-on refuse just to stay in the service. So he was obviously just finding it difficult to process or was coping with it in his own way yeah yeah how you know.
Speaker 1:I know that you've suffered a loss recently and you've got small children. You know, and you've the ladies that you mentioned. It sounded like a few of them had children as well. If you've got children, how do you support children? Do you think they're going through grief?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean obviously children. They, they are resilient, and lots of people will say things like that you have to be careful. It can manifest in different ways, obviously, and so children, one minute they can be crying, next minute they're laughing. I think the timing feels different for them. So for them a week probably feels so much longer than it does to us, and so a few months can seem like such a long time. One of my children just recently said that about my auntie, anne, and that it was a long time ago, and I was like it was only a few months ago, you know, but in their head it obviously feels very different.
Speaker 2:We, we've just tried to be really open and honest with our children. I think that that, as a rule, um is a good way to be. I think that when you try to hide things from children, that they will either just ask questions or find out, or it can be worse if the truth comes out later on, um. So I think that you kind of have to go with how they seem if they want to talk, and try and talk to them about it, um, and perhaps other times it's best to try and have some normality as well. You know, for our children. They came to the funeral but the next day they went back to school. We didn't want to disrupt their whole life and routine completely. They carried on with their activities and things like that.
Speaker 2:I think my children are quite different. My middle one in particular is quite sensitive and she presents as though she's sort of full of it, but she's not always and she was the one we were sort of particularly worried about and she really thinks about things and she asks lots of questions. And again, we just tried to be quite open and honest and they came to the funeral and I'm a big believer that if that feels right for you and your family, that there's no reason why children can't come um, there was never a question that that they weren't going to be there. Some people feel that it's not right. Um, I always say to families it really depends how you feel. Uh, I think your gut feeling on it is usually right, but I always say as well, it's worth talking to the child and asking how they feel about it. Do they want to be there or do they not?
Speaker 1:yeah, and what about supporting friends? Because I think there's I've spoken to a lot of people and it's not necessarily, um, you know, I spoke to somebody and I know that you also have had cancer and they said that their husband had cancer and they've lost a lot of friends, that the friends weren't would you know. They'd see a friend cross the street because the friend probably didn't know what to say, perhaps and didn't want to feel awkward. So how do you support a friend? Do you think going through grief?
Speaker 2:Yeah, obviously, I kind of experienced it a couple of times. So my dad died the day before my 22nd birthday in 2005, as you all know, and then lost my auntie in October. And this time around I sort of promised myself that not only would I kind of do things differently and hopefully use what I've learned in a way, but also, when it came to friendships, I did sort of lose some people from my life when my dad died. I think I don't blame them, they just maybe didn't know what to say. And then this gulf appeared, and it was also a time just finished from university as well, so my life was going to change anyway and some of those friendships may not have survived. Um, and this time around I thought I'm going to be more sort of open and honest and upfront about what I want from people or what if I need something, or if they can help me that I'll ask them.
Speaker 2:I think sometimes people don't know either how to ask for help or they don't want to ask for help, and then the other person doesn't know how to help or what to say and you can end up with this impasse. And so I sort of promised myself that if I wanted company, if I wanted, if I needed help, if there was anything practical that somebody could do for me, that I would reach out and that helps your friend to support you, because they think, oh, that's you know. If you say, are you free, do you want to go for a walk? And the other person feels good, then because they can be there for you and help you and feel like they've done something. Um, and it prevents you kind of sitting there thinking I really wish I had someone to talk to and don't know what to do or what to say. Um, but my advice to people supporting those in grief is usually to to just to be there. All you need to do is to just show up, whether that's literally showing up at their house or sending them a message every day saying you know, do you need anything? Do you want to go for a walk? Do you want a coffee? Do you need any? Do you want to go for a walk? Do you want a coffee? Do you need any shopping?
Speaker 2:I think like really practical, direct things can be really helpful, like I'm at the shops. Do you need anything? I've got an hour free. Do you fancy a cuppa? I think the worst thing to do is to say nothing to you. Know, not go there.
Speaker 2:I think most people they just want to help and they just want to show their care. Um, and I spoke to my uncle um about this, because he was really struggling with how people were dealing with him or how people were being around him, and I said you've just got to remember that most people mean well, most people want to help, and some people are better at articulating things than others. Some people know what to say or what not to say or what to do, and others don't. But you've got to be quite gracious really. I think, and and think that if someone said something a bit clumsily that they don't mean it badly, they just don't really want know what to say. He was getting a bit upset that people were asking how he was and that's just an you know, a natural thing for somebody to say. And they don't really expect you to be doing well.
Speaker 1:They just don't know how to open that conversation yeah, and I know that obviously your auntie really sad because she knew she was dying, um, and a lot of people I'm guessing the ladies you mentioned that were in their 40s they were also in a hospice, probably knew they were dying. How do you support somebody that is knows that they're dying?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean some. When I go to visit families, it's always really nice, in a way, when they've had a hand in the arrangements, because from my professional point of view, I know that we're doing what they would like. Yeah, um, I think it's. It's always really humbling when somebody's acknowledged and accepted this is what is happening and that they want to put things in place.
Speaker 2:But everybody does deal with it differently and some people who know that that you know that their life is not going to continue for much longer obviously struggle with that and get angry and don't want to think about it. And others, um, you know, will think about the arrangements and and think about things that they want to do. It's you get the real wide range of it. You know, my auntie wanted to talk to me professionally as well as personally about things and, you know, even though I knew it was all happening, it was really difficult to have those conversations. But I think, like anything, I think the more honest you are, more open and accepting you are of the situation, I think that that helps. Um, you know, if you, if you, try to disguise the truth or or lie about these things, I don't think that that will ever lead to anywhere good um can you ever find joy during that time?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean we certainly did with my auntie. You know she had, she lived for just over two years with the diagnosis and within that time we had holidays and trips and things. It just sometimes looked different. Sometimes you wouldn't have known any different if we didn't know, we wouldn't have known that she wasn't the same but sometimes looked different. Just on practical level, physical, you know, challenges and things like that, and psychologically you know it's different.
Speaker 2:So the last time we went to Scotland together, we, we kind of we went once and we thought it might be the last time and then we got to go again and we really felt like it might be the last time. And so there was, with everything that we did, it was sort of tinged with that sort of bittersweet, this could be the last time and it. But it also made us embrace it and enjoy it. I think it's just shifting sort of expectations sometimes and finding the small bits of joy as opposed to it being what you might want it to be.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I think with I mean with my auntie I don't know if that would be the same as for everybody she, she would make light of it sometimes and she would joke about things and that, again, that humor can sometimes take the edge off it. Um, I'm sure that she had much different conversations with my uncle than she did all the time with me. It depends on your relationship with that person as well. But I think, like anything, I think a lot of honesty, um is helpful, because, yeah, I think hiding it if you know that somebody is is dying and you're trying to conceal that from them, that sometimes can happen.
Speaker 1:But or avoid the conversation.
Speaker 2:You know yeah, again, it just becomes that sort of elephant yeah, um, but yeah for my auntie.
Speaker 2:We just tried to embrace the time that we had um and also just be normal most of the time um, and to just appreciate the time that we we had with her, which it's hard to ever fully accept that you only got so many years when some people live to be 100 and to think that she was only in her early 60s. We just tried to embrace all the time that we had with her, especially in those last few years working so closely, like you know, with death.
Speaker 1:You know, you know, and how has that made you appreciate life and how has that made you live your life differently?
Speaker 2:yeah, it definitely has.
Speaker 2:And to think that actually I've had cancer myself in 2010 and you would think that that would be a wake-up call and it was. But what happened was that I went back to teaching and I got dragged back into that life and the stress and, you know, there was mornings. I would wake up and think I wish I could just go back to sleep. I don't think that I enjoyed every day not that we can ever enjoy every day of our life but you know, to me there was just so many days where I wished I could have just gone back to sleep, and it's only now doing this somehow that it's really changed. I mean, it's probably everything. It's just the fact that I'm so much happier in what I do and being older, but it's really made me change and think about things differently and appreciate life and really appreciate people over material things as such and just knowing that they're the most important thing in your life, and I think it's it's partly seeing that death can occur at any age yeah um, seeing that it can happen suddenly, tragically, unexpectedly.
Speaker 2:You know you don't just get to do funerals for 90 odd year old people, sadly um, but the ones that stick with me, the, the funeral services, or the families where I come away and think, wow, it's not the ones that have done extraordinary things, it's not the ones that have set up companies and, you know, changed the world or invented something or, you know, gone to university and they've got a doctorate. It's the ones that are just really really loved by people and you can just tell. You can tell when you talk to the families, and then you can tell, like on the day, like get there and you can just see how many people are in the room because they just loved them and they were just wonderful people who were good to people. Um, those are the ones. So it makes me think this is, this is where the value is in life.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, it's being a good person and loving people. Yeah and yeah.
Speaker 2:I'd like to think that I've always had those values, but it's sort of it's really cemented it for me and it's it. It really makes me think it. Just it really doesn't matter, like how much your car cost, just no one is really going to think about that when you've died no one's going to put that on your eulogy yeah, this is it and this is what I say.
Speaker 2:And of course, I get services where the people say, oh they, you know, they love the fancy clothes and they always wore nice things and and that's. That's absolutely fine and it's part of who they were as a person. But I just don't think that those are the most important things. I don't think those are really the things that we miss about a person. Um, you know, you can just feel the warmth, um, you know, with people and I just it's really cemented what's important in life for me.
Speaker 1:I think you write beautifully on your Facebook page and I know I keep saying you need to do more. Yeah, because your writing is amazing. So where? Where is your Facebook page? Because is that your only social?
Speaker 2:I think yeah, so what's your Facebook page?
Speaker 1:that's right. What's your Facebook page that people should follow? They don't have to be local tutorsville, because I think what you write about grief is just beautiful, and you know, you don't even aim to be necessarily in the uk. I think, obviously, what you write is perfect, um, you know, for anybody that is experiencing grief, wherever you live. So what's your facebook page called? So?
Speaker 2:it's called death funerals and Me. So I've been using it for just over a year or so. So I haven't been running it the whole time. I had ideas of doing it before and then I just didn't dare to do it or didn't really know quite what to do with it. So I use it just to write about my professional work and personal experiences as well. So I don't I don't use it as a kind of daily diary.
Speaker 2:Um, I follow a number of funeral celebrants, some of whom I'm good friends with, and they do it more as a sort of daily. Today I did a service for so-and-so and what I. I chose not to go down that route so you won't kind of see what I'm doing day to day, you won't see how many services I've done this week, etc. I try and pick out the themes that sometimes just seem to naturally occur and then also sort of combine that with my personal life if it feels relevant so I don't know where it's going to go I set it up thinking I'll just see, and if nothing else, it's an outlet for me and to express myself. I would love to do something a little bit more with it, but I'm just not quite sure how or what you should definitely, because even it was the other one it was felt.
Speaker 1:Quite recently you wrote something about views and how you and you mentioned about, I think, maybe even take a picture of you, and then it's like also, it's not just about death, it's also appreciating the small things in life that we can all appreciate wherever we, wherever we are because I'm sure that you know, wherever we all live, there must be a good view somewhere we've all got yeah.
Speaker 2:So obviously you've suggested a couple of platforms, so it's on my to-do list. I just what seems to happen with me and my work is for instance, last week I had seven funerals, so it was a very busy week. I had about four or five visits in amongst that as well, um, and then this week it was looking quite quiet. I've only got a couple of services towards the end of the week, and then I was like brilliant, I've got some time next week, I can do this, I can do this. And then all of a sudden I'll get like three bookings. So Friday afternoon I had three visits to set up with families and all of a sudden my diary's full.
Speaker 2:So it's on my list to sort of move all of my blog pieces across to some sort of platform. My intention was that, if and when I get a website, that some of the pieces would fit into like an FAQ section. So I've tried to write about things that people might ask about funeral, like are you allowed to have a laugh at a funeral, or you know what kind of music are you allowed to have at a funeral? You know these sorts of things that people might not be sure about. So I've tried to write around those sorts of themes.
Speaker 1:Can you have a laugh at a funeral?
Speaker 2:Absolutely Okay, good to know. Is there any restrictions on music at a funeral? Absolutely okay, good. Good to know. Is there any?
Speaker 2:restrictions on music at a funeral not really only in as long as we can get it either. Get it on the system. And the different crematoriums use different um companies that provide the music services, um, and even if they, even if it's not on there, there are ways of downloading things and getting things on. So it's really if that piece of music is, like you know, allowed to be played in public. I think that's the main restriction. But we've had heavy metal, I guess. Oh yeah, yeah, I've had um, the countdown theme for going out. So that was fun. That was on about four times before we were like did, did, diddle, diddle, did. We were like right, can we just stop this now?
Speaker 1:did they let that count down the?
Speaker 2:person. They loved it. They loved it. Um, and we had the james bond theme because this particular person and told everyone that he was a spy. Uh, so we had that. So that was very fitting. Obviously, you know, highway to hell, that's not an uncommon piece. You know, people think that it has to be somber, classical and like no, it can do whatever you want. Some people choose something more uplifting for the end because it helps to sort of lift the mood a little bit. Yeah, um. So yeah, no restrictions. And you know, probably 90 or more of my families that I work with will say they want it to feel lighter or to have some humor in there. And it's only really particular circumstances, I think, where people will say just doesn't feel right to have any kind of humor.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, thank you so much for joining me. I've really enjoyed our conversation. I feel, even though obviously we've been friends for so long. You are my oldest friend. We've been friends like I can't. I was thinking the other day we've been friends about 38 years or something yeah, I feel I've got such a more understanding of your job now and you're what you do day to day, so thank you so much for joining us so much, thank you thank you for listening to another episode of the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
Speaker 1:If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe, and don't forget to share the link with a friend. If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode. You can also follow my recruitment site Investing In Women on LinkedIn, facebook and Instagram. Until next time, time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.